Are druids really so mediocre as they say ?

Recently came back to Everquest after what must be a 10 year break, started playing on Phinigel now. The druid is a well rounded class and I always liked them and acknowledge (and love) the 'jack of all trades, master of none' factor about them.

However, I wonder if they are as mediocre as people make them out to be, I hear a lot of druid complaining about not getting spots in group, hardly any unique raid ability or desire. I wonder how viable a druid is end game as healer or going forward in Luclin. I also hear post Luclin the Druid starts to get weaker, though I'm not sure what that is about?

It seems clear to me I'm going to be passed for a cleric or shaman on heal slot, going to be passed for a Rogue or Wizard for DPS, still I wonder how hard it truly is to find groups or find good purpose feeling that I contribute as a Druid...

Play on real servers, sounds like that Phinigel crowd ain't real smart.

You can't be a well rounded class and top performer so there is always a better class for a specific need. Druids can buff, debuff, ds, dot, nuke, port, snare, evac/port, charm, heal, I'm sure I'm missing a few things. They are very self sufficient and add greatly to a group and raid. But unless you have guildies and regular friends to group it will likely be hard to be asked into a group.

I played a raid Druid up to OoW/Anguish and group played on up to VoA. I would say Velious, Luclin were low points in the pickup group world. A lot of solo time needed when my friends weren't on. By PoP onwards I have no regrets playing a Druid. Although I switched to a raid bard, my first love is a Druid for the same reasons you mention and Bard also has that same mindset although in a different focus.

Play what you love, become skilled in the class and any raid guild would want you. Group game may always be harder if you expect random people to pick you out of list of lfg. You will need to network and make friends and they will appreciate what a Druid brings to a group.

No ragrets?

Not even a single letter?

Lol

Very true, the difficulty lies in fact that a lot of people seem to expect only top and are somewhat blinded at what a rounded class can bring. We are a recipe for the offbeat group, similar as when I played the Bard back in the day, I kinda like them offbeat groups where it really gets interesting for a rounded class contributing in a meaningful way. Come to think of it, the challenging aspect of the Druid we discussed here is also part of the appeal of choosing to be a Druid.

While that is certainly true with EQ druids, I wouldn't agree with that statement.

Shaman are much better at making use of their broad ability set. ie - In a non-trivial / healing-intense situation, they can still add a lot of aDPS and slow with minimal effect on their healing rate (shaman aDPS is lot more beneficial for realistic non-raid group setups.)

If you go outside of EQ, you'll see that in modern game design that 'DPS priest' is a true archetype in itself -- that is, making DPS itself heal, and the more DPS you do, the more you heal. While EQ has made some minimal effort into modernizing druids with TOT nuke/heals, there is a lot more they could be doing.

Clerics are more efficient healers
Almost any dps is better for a dps spot.

Why add a druid? Your group has room for 1 cleric 1chanter 1 tank and 3 dps

If the cleric can't solo heal, they are bad so you replace them. Druids filling a dps slot is only viable if they can charm

I Would pick a druid as first choice to fill out any group. Druid is a permanent third slot in my box set. Most groups slow to fill out can grab a Druid and go.

I believe some or maybe most of the "don't want a druid" mindset is due to the player (of the druid) not wanting to play the role that the group needs or be paying attention and picking up the slack where needed.

There is a significant difference between Luclin and the end game, which on Live servers is The Broken Mirror. Druids on Live are desirable and generally have three participants on raids.

Unless you are referring to the end game on Phinny. In which case it has been so long that I played in those expansions that I cannot speak for that end game....

As others said, Druid being master of none means that in most eras of EQ you are looking to fill out 6 group slots, with 4 main roles.

Tank - Nope
Healer - Depends on era... From about... Classic-PoP, for the highest tier group content cleric is the only option because of how OP Complete Heal is. PoP a Druid could sort of get by with their CH that healed 30% less, cost 50% more and couldn't critical. But you needed to med far more often. Once CH fell out of favor in the 70-75 era, Druids could fill the healer slot fine in most all scenarios.
DPS - Always a 5-6th pick for this slot
Slower - Nope
**Puller - Almost no one trusts a Druid to pull, though they aren't too bad with root CC / Harmony depending on outdoor zones.
**CC - Root CC is better than nothing but not all that reliable.

So basically, you're relegated to the 5th/6th slot in the group that most people want to fill with high DPS classes. Utility like snare, root, ATK debuffs, and backup heals isn't that useful in most face roll content. In some harder group content like EPs in PoP, or GoD trials, having a backup healer and cleric was a necessity. But many groups would often favor the shaman due to slow for this slot anyways, or just a second cleric for double the heal power.

Which basically led to Druids being a largely solo based class. This isn't to say that Druids were only soloers, but the majority of us would be getting most of our AAs through charm kiting, root rotting or quadding. Grouping was something you do for progression, quests or gear/augments. Not for EXP grind groups and generally you wanted to be the one starting that group, just because filling a utility slot is an easy pick at the end of a group and if you're starting it you have that Locked down.

My personal experience on Quarm recently basically echoed my prior EQ experience. I grouped 51-52 to get the next level charm, soloed 52-68 with a PoJ trial, a little PoStorm BoT keying, and 1 group in WoS for runes in there. Got level 69 while doing a Tipt trial I formed up for (Dru, SK, Ench, 2 Rogue, Bard), and then soloed 69-70.

The lack of desirability to fill a specific required slot in a group + the lack of any solo exp bonus pushing everyone into grouping for leveling is why I never rolled on Phinigel.

All that being said, a competent Druid is still an asset to a group. But if you're going to try to completely optimize it with 6 competent players, they have no role in that group until around level 85/90 where they are on even footing with clerics.

I guess it all depends on the particular situation, but indeed a lot of group leader will reason like you do. I guess any other DPS class will get invited with as for the Druid it's more of a can get invited. I'm lucky in that department, looking at my two months with the game since returning I have created and lead 9 times out of 10. I often see two full groups in LFG, people should do it more.

Anyway, what about raids? How are druids position there, same story I take it?

(indeed, I mainly speak in the context of Phinigel and where it's at with Velious launched and Luclin coming)

I grouped with druids/shaman all the time because I am impatient and I wont wait for clerics and the regular group I was in had 2 enchanters and a necro so we basically plowed through anything we touched.

Most groups aren't set up like that so they dont think like that. Also alot of the druids on Phinny are really bad, apparently snaring is hard. So your combating bad class perception, and poorly balanced class structure.

But Yeh if you are an undesirable class like paladin wizard magician druid or ranger, you really need to make your own group.

Need a Druid for buffs (Skin, SoW/Eagles, Seasons), and debuffs (Fire, AC and ATK).

Beyond that their role in raid is typical group healer/curer on raids with AEs/Adds. Or supplemental DPS on boring corner tank fights. Or rarely kiter if your SKs/Paladins happen to be inept.

So you want a minimum of 1 on the raid and you'll take additional ones to keep DPS groups alive, but Shamans or additional clerics will suffice as well. This is the case for most of EQ. Again in later EQ a Druid/Cleric team was a solid option for your Tank Groups.

Do you have any regrets looking like a tool?

To be honest, at least on the Rathe, true pick up groups are few and far between. Especially where they are looking for particular classes. Yes there are some Group Missions where particular class balance is important but often it seems like you are looking for 3-6 people for 90% of the content and it doesn't really matter the class.

So I'd say if you want to group, then play what you want and have fun. I don't think the class decision is as important anymore on the live servers. If you are wanting to raid in the very top guilds, you will have trouble getting a spot since the gap for druids between other healers is too great, and almost all guilds I see look for druids to be primarily healers in raids.

However if you aren't trying to raid with the very top guilds, again I don't think you'll have much trouble getting in. I raid 2 to 4 times a week and I can't remember the last time we had over 45 people in the raid, and haven't been close at all to maxing the raid and turning people away, (And 2-3 of those raids are on current TBM content). So again, if you want to raid, you should play the class you enjoy and have fun.

I care a ton about your opinion. Let me get some booze and drown my sorrows.

Lol

Just an FYI he was quoting a funny line from the movie Meet the Millers. He wasn't making fun of you. You didn't even typo. You getting all defensive is a little amusing. But anyways.

Druids are awesome. Here's why. Any dps class can dps (if they're not played lazy/stupid). But of those DPS classes, none of them can save a group from certain doom. Sure druid can't out parse a well played dps but they can hold their own AND when the poo hits the fan, they have the power to turn the tide.

To me, that's fun. More fun than just topping a parse on a class that can always top parses. It's not impressive to see a tier 1 dps doing awesome dps. It never has been and never will be. It is impressive to see a druid do decent dps and even more impressive to see them save your bacon.

Druid for president.

Don't get me wrong a druid can save a group from a wipe. Yeh that's cool and all the thing is... the min/max group gets so much more done... if and when it happens it gets shrugged off and you were getting so much more done anyways you are still way ahead after recovery time.

But really it shouldn't happen unless you are really riding the wire.

Edit: since he mentioned Phinny I am mainly talking the early years of EQ, in later years druids really came into their own, though they could still use Afew bones thrown their way.

With all the praise I have for the class, a bone or two could still definitely be thrown. Something new would be good. I'd even love to just see more of the "remote" type spells that heal and nuke at the same time. Those are a favorite of mine.

Presuming the next step of the DoT restructuring goes forward sometime before the end of the world, you'll basically have a whole whack of new toys to play with on your druid.