Alliance spells

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by smash, Jan 7, 2017.

  1. smash Augur

    In a way some of those seems rather unfair.

    Example, a lot of guilds only got 1 char of that class in, so that person will never get spell.
    At same time clerics/druids/shamans, are effected by the other 2 classes.

    So it should be changed so, each class has some Brother/sister class. And time for some should be extended a bit.

    Example Monk = beastlords, beasts = shamans. Paladin = sk, and so on.
  2. ~Mills~ Augur

    But necros have no equal. Could just makes theirs require 2 counters of their own spells and be on 30s refresh.
    Venau likes this.
  3. Seldom Augur

    Seems as if it's more unfair for a guild to only have one of a specific class on it's roster. Having this be rewarded by the sharing of alliances would only further motivate this (FYI: those class alliances aren't the same in power). Guild should do its best to recruit more of the class if desiring to utilize the class specific alliance IMO.
    Cicelee likes this.
  4. Jumbur Augur

    They could make it so that alliances are shared among archtypes, for example: all int-casters can trigger each others alliances, or something like that.

    As it is now, a lot of non-raiders will never get to try their alliance-spells at all.

    Even on raids we are not always enough wizards to make it work, and I guess other less numerous classes have the same problem.
  5. segap Augur

    I think they actually promote recruiting more of the classes you already have is part of the problem. If you have one of a class and three of another, adding one of the three to make four is potentially more beneficial than adding one to the one to make two.

    If these were designed to promote balancing rosters, I think it was the wrong thing to do at this point in EQ's life. Many guilds have problems just in maintaining a viable roster, let alone picking and choosing classes to recruit. If they balance classes around these abilities, it randomly puts members of different classes at severe disadvantages based on recruiting luck. Many dps classes already have to deal with severe dependency on adps. But at least in guilds lacking adps classes, that evens the field between dps classes within a guild.
    IblisTheMage likes this.
  6. Seldom Augur

    Not quite following your logic fully Segap. For example, OP proposed SK/PAL sharing alliance counters. SK alliance boosts 4 spells by 45k damage and 2.1 mil damage at end. Pal alliance boosts 6 spells by 25k damage and 1.1 mil at end(this is off top of my head but actual numbers should be fairly close). You want to utilize both of those if can, just like all the others. One is obviously more powerful and easier to proc with low numbers. If you want your raid force to be efficient as possible you will try to optimize taking advantage of these spells, as you would ADPS coordination. If not, you're leaving some easy freebie damage on table. For the record, I'm not a complete fan in the difference of power in some of the spells or the way these were implemented. I do think they have plus sides though and should stay class specific
  7. snailish Augur

    I'm actually a fan of games where the combo (alliance) mechanic involves different classes doing different things. Synergy as it were. Kind of the way certain group constitutions have always been a part of a raid leaders "meddle with it like a general manager of a baseball team" kind of thing.

    Necros and enchanters have great synergy in the classic game, if one looks at the way their spell lines complement each other. You really see this if just duoing with these classes, which maybe many have never done. Perhaps applying this (old) logic could improve the current alliance system?

    Or, as others have said... recruit a larger raid force?
  8. Kaenneth Augur

    I'm with snailish; I would prefer that classes have debuffs that enhance other classes spells more than their own, preferably in a rock-paper-scissors cycle.
  9. Brohg Augur

    You mean like how Tash debuffed just one out of Necro's four different targeted resists? or how dots break mezzes? and how necro snare is also a dot and also short duration so it would probably be off before charm breaks so don't bother? or how Clarity doesn't stack with Lich? Speaking of Lich, in the "classic game" that ate runes right up. What the heck are you talking about?
    RPoo likes this.
  10. fransisco Augur

    some classes like mages have had raid only spells for a decade - the of many line for example.
    Doesn't work unless there are 15+ pets on the mob. Not something mages can keep up continually.
    Nothing new, just ignore the spell if you don't raid.
  11. Cicelee Augur

    Ummmmmm........ No. You are wrong.

    XXX of Many will work if one pet is on the mob. However the amount of damage it will do is low. To maximize the damage, you want fifteen or more pets on the mob. But to say "it only works if there is 15+ pets on a mob" is a false statement.
    Xeladom and Xanathol like this.
  12. GoneFission Elder

    Because if you are only getting like three spells for the expansion, it's important that one of them be raid-only.
    Xanathol likes this.
  13. fransisco Augur

    Way to miss the forest for the trees.
    Yes I technically misquoted and said it doesn't work with less than 15 mobs. But the spell is not worth casting with only a few pets on the mob.
  14. Cicelee Augur

    Ummmmmmm........ No. Wrong again.

    If you are level 102 and have Storm of Many, and you invest in Theft of Essence AA, then casting that spell gives a 45% chance of proccing Theft of Essence. This is an aura that lasts 4 minutes and affects all pets near your pet within a certain radius. This aura provides all pets with 26% avoidance, adds attack up to I believe 1000 at rank 8, and adds some hit points to the pets (or something similar).

    Now I am not sure if lower level xxx of Many spells also proc Theft of Essence. But I don't know about other magician's not named Francisco, but I sure love it when my main and RS pets get an extra 26% avoidance and another 1000 attack or so. That seems worthwhile to me.

    You say I miss the forest through the trees. Are you even on dry land with your magician comments? :p
    IblisTheMage and Xanathol like this.
  15. shruggz Lorekeeper

    as far as the of many line, as a grouper/boxer I'm seeing crits of over 300k when I time it right, seems worthwhile to me. (shaman, mage, bard, all hit swarm pets, mage with rs and main pet, sometimes a forceful rejuved rs as well, with shaman pet and pact it can be very effective)
    as a non raider having alliance spells that I will never use doesn't bother me any.
    IblisTheMage likes this.
  16. Duhbeast Augur

    You just need 2 bsts to proc our alliance, but the reason it isn't used in groups is because the mobs die too fast. I'm not really understanding the complaint about an interesting new spell line which requires coordination with your other class mates.
  17. Vrinda Elder

    Good point.

    If you look at each class's alliance spell, you'll discover there's a large disparity between them. Wizards and mages require eight spells with a minimum mana cost of 10 and a minimum of 2500 dmg each in 18 seconds to trigger the fulmination, while BSTs (10 mana/3000 dmg) and SKs (10 mana/2500 dmg) require 4 spells and rangers (10 mana/1000 dmg) require 12. If you have one wizard, one mage, one ranger, and two SKs on your roster, you're better off recruiting another SK than attempting to add one wizard, mage, or ranger in hopes that the one additional player can get the fulmination to trigger. While there are certainly ways for one wiz or mage to get eight qualifying spells off in 18 seconds, it's tough to do due to the global cooldown if you're the only person whose casts count.

    Then there's the issue of having it sit on the mob as a debuff. The longer it sits there without reaching fulmination, the greater the chance a second alliance cast by a different player won't land if your timing/coordination is less than perfect. The quicker it's off the mob so the next one can land, the better off you are, meaning you'll get better results with three players of the same class.

    As segap says, the best strategy is to stack your classes.
  18. IblisTheMage Augur

    In our group we have actually managed to have "all pets on deck", making of Many a key spell on the rotation. We never go below 4, very often are above 15, and the EoK improvements to Theft of Essence is a fantastic synergetic force multiplier. I would say that of Many is not exclusively a raid spell anymore.

    I have no opinion on whether Aliance spells should be group-friendly. I don't particularily like that mage alliance promote +3 mage boxing, for example, I think that is going backwards in time.

    I liked the idea that it should be archetype-oriented, so that it adds damage to nukes/dots within the same archetype. Maybe it could be the nuke bonus damage to the first tick of the dot?

    Also, the mage and necro alliance could also be oriented towards pets instead of players, giving nearby pets a number of counters of some kind of Virulent Tallon-like effect, perhaps from a shared pool, centered on the mage's/necros pet.

    I think mage Dicho is failed, and I have never cast Alliance. As a grouping mage, there is part of the development effort that will never reach me, and that is to be expected, and totally OK, as long as it is an active design decision. There should be rewards for raiding effort, and maybe this is just one of them. Well failed mage dicho is totally not OK, but that is an entirely different discussion.
  19. Seldom Augur

    Vrinda, if a raid force has 1 wiz, magi, ranger on roster and 2 shadowknights, then decides to recruit another shadowknight for alliance purposes over those classes, they have bigger problems lol. I don't even consider that a real in game scenario unless goal is to be wiping all night. If a raid has 3-5 rangers, 1-2 beast, and you have opportunity to get another bst/ranger, you're going to go with beast. Even if alliances didn't exist, you'd be wise to go with another beast. Alliance just makes it an even easier no brainer and adds more incentive. Same goes for other classes like Pal vs SK, Wiz vs Magi etc. I personally think the issue that should be focused on is some classes can get the fulmination to proc extremely easily no issue with just 1 other of their class while others struggle. All classes should be able to achieve this IMO and is an extremely easy thing to fix in multiple ways. Raid forces should be highly motivated to strive to achieve a healthy number of all classes
  20. IblisTheMage Augur


    This passive ability gives your summoned creature bane direct-damage spells and your Shock of Many line of spells a 45% chance to empower your pet and nearby pets with a Theft of Essence, increasing their evasion by 26%, max health by 10000 points, and attack rating by 750 (2750 for swarm pets) points for 4 minutes.

    I have set it up so that I cast it around 20% of times I cast memmed spells, which is conservative, given the number of pets we employ, and I use Force -> Orb -> Chaotic -> Fickle (and now Brogh will say "rain!", and I will reply "we mez...") -> Many. Theft is up 99% of the time, affecting all pets and swarm pets, I have no idea how much it helps, but it sure feels nice, and I suspect it really helps pet hold aggro (together with Roar and songs). I like that the spells are fast, it gives a nice pace to the game, compared to the heavy hitters, and also this is great for mana conservation, obviously. I need to dive into stacking of Flames, HeartFlames, ElementalFlames, Union, Vapor, etc etc, and see how the best group based rotation would be for those, over a random application. Problem again is mob health, 5 million HP is nothing on a mob (anymore) ;-). Can we get tougher trash mobs please? :p

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