Alliance rework

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by uberkingkong, Aug 2, 2022.

  1. Whulfgar Augur

    I have never ever thought I'd ever see anyone post saying..

    Alliances negatively effect guilds..

  2. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer

    /comfort Whulfgar
  3. Skrab East Cabilis #1 Realtor

    Should just be debuff cast an adps class that is tied to damage type (poison, fire, cold, chromatic, magic, crippling blow, etc) that progresses through ranks of damage. Apply Fire Alliance, damage cap reached for Fulmination 1, then it applies damage and triggers Fire Alliance Stage 2, and repeat.

    This way accommodates groups and raids and avoids need X of a class.
  4. Maedhros High King

    Not sure what you're getting at here.
    We are using several expansion old Alliances right now so its easy to consider them trivial, or at least thats what I think your post is hinting at.
    Next expansion when we get the upgrades they will seem significant for some classes again.
    Its a no-brainer to get feedback in now when there is a small chance that we can help improve the alliances, especially stagnate the strong ones, and boost the weak ones.

    I also can't tell you how many times since Alliances have come out that people send me tells or messages as a guild leader complaining that so and so isn't firing their alliance, or so and so isn't casting their alliance, or so and so isn't coordinating with their peers and is causing issues. etc etc.
    Every time I have to have these conversations with people, I think about how much worse it must be the further down the raid guild tiers where things like effort, skill, coordination and communication all start to increasingly suffer.

    I saw a few times in this post that they were calling alliance 1% of their class dps.
    This may be true at the higher end. In fact alliances are certainly less than 1% for some players even if they are in guilds that are successfully fulminating most alliances.
    However, the worse a guilds dps is, and the worse the individual players dps is, the higher percentage of impact a successful alliance fulmination becomes.

    There is no expectation stated on the original Dichotomic spells that it should be difficult to fulminate alliances.
    Many classes are better represented than others, and the fulmination requirements are not fluid.
    You could have 2 high skill berzerkers with great attendance and effort levels that will never ever fulminate each others alliances.
    Meanwhile 2 terrible necros could each load up a handful of dots and fire each others alliances every time without fail instantly.

    System is broken.

    It's odd that I even have to spell any of that out.
    Windance and Skuz like this.
  5. Wdor Thief, Assassin, Purveyor of Fine Poisons

    In our guild, as rogues, we set up a 'casting' chain, and have hotkeys announcing who just cast in our rogue channel. Works pretty good, on the rare occasion we can find three rogues.
    Nennius likes this.
  6. Maedhros High King

    3 rogues or any other melee of other classes using proc potions. you knew that right?
    Wulfhere, Silvena and Svann2 like this.
  7. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer

    Why isn't this alliance advantage afforded to every class?
    Maedhros likes this.
  8. Svann2 The Magnificent

    Does that work outside of group? I mean like in another group in the raid?
    Maedhros likes this.
  9. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    Why wouldn't it? You don't need to be in the same group or raid for any of the alliance stuff to fire as far as I am aware.
  10. Lubianx Augur

    I still want to know why the pally one has a stun as part of it's fulmination when the majority of "important" raid mobs are stun immune? Still makes me shake my head
    Nennius, Maedhros, Warpeace and 2 others like this.
  11. Wdor Thief, Assassin, Purveyor of Fine Poisons

    I did not. That's very interesting, and does seem a bit unfair to other character types. Can you elaborate on it a bit?
    Maedhros likes this.
  12. Lubianx Augur

    Apart from the rogue only poisons, any scorpion agony or spider's bite procs can fulminate the rogue alliance. This means that it should be firing pretty much all the time.
    Maedhros likes this.
  13. Maedhros High King

    As a rogue, ask your guild mates to donate their poison making components, then you make the potions and give them out to your meleers. Your meleers will do a tiny bit more dps, (every bit counts), and your rogues will fulminate alliances more often.
    I don't think there is any limitation on which rank of the potions you use either. Anything from Spider's Bite I through XXI or whatever one we are up to now. So all those old components are useful.
    Unless I am mistaken, Warriors, berserkers, and monks would probably use Spider or Scorpion potions in the case of warriors that want an infinitesimal bit more agro. Maybe bards too? Any melee that can cast spells the traditional way will most likely prefer to use Restless Focus potions, which do not trigger rogue alliance.
    Wdor and Lubianx like this.
  14. Szilent Augur

    resisted poison procs don't count
    poisons cast as their own level, not the players' levels
    so there is a lower bound on what will work, in a practical sense

    The low level ones can be demonstrated to work on low level guild hall dummies, though. They won't resist but still have enough hp to not die out from under the regular melee.
    Wdor, Whulfgar and Maedhros like this.
  15. Whulfgar Augur

    ok allow me to spell it out for ya..

    Any dps outside of the norm is a good thing. Alliances are considered outside of the norm..

    You trying to attempt to say they are this or that .. thus broken means you do not understand that alliances are in fact outside of the norm dps.. they help.

    Never in all my time on the forums have I ever had to explain to some one (let alone a guild leader) that alliances are not bad .. they are good.

    But here we are ..
  16. Maedhros High King

    Well we definitely do not agree there at all.
    You also don't have to explain alliances to me and if this was your attempt to explain it, wow.
    Simply saying they are not bad, they are good?
    What a simplistic, ridiculous, blanket statement to apply to a complex variety of actual facts.

    You are wrong that they are dps "outside the norm" what ever the heck that means.
    There is no separate section of damage applied to a mob for alliances.
    The damage is just as good as "the norm".

    Out of the 16 classes, how many of them actually get solid usage and fulminations of their alliances?
    Not even taking into consideration bad players and good players, what do we need for just average players to be able to fulminate each classes alliance?
    One class didn't even get an alliance.
    For one class, 2 players can reliably fulminate each others alliance.
    For one class, players outside of their own classes can fulminate their alliance.
    For one class, players can recast their alliance every 6 seconds.
    For a few classes 3 average players can fairly reliably fulminate each others alliance.
    For most classes you are going to need 4 or 5 average players to fulminate each others alliance.

    For spell casters, you have to use/waste a valuable spell slot on your spell bar to mem alliance. 1 out of 13 spells
    For melee you can just dump a hot button into a hot bar. 1 out of 110 hot bar buttons.
    That seems a bit out of whack to me.

    One out of three priest classes is expected to recast their usually un-fulminated alliance once every 4 minutes on either all the tanks or whoever they are assigned. The other 2 priest classes don't really get to cast theirs because the priest alliances all block one another on a targeted player.

    Its clear that there are considerable variables for each class on whether using their alliance is even worth their time.

    You obviously completely ignored the idea that alliances can be a problem for a guild.
    Thats ok, not everyone has the ability to think through the full breadth of an issue.
    I assure you though, there is a lot more to the current state of alliances than your hilariously simplistic view that they are apparently bonus dps to the classes that can use them, and just outside the norm.
    In other words, those of you who have issues with your alliances, don't worry, be happy, they are just bonus dps anyways!
  17. Skrab East Cabilis #1 Realtor

    Better ideas have been abandoned, it’s time to put alliances to bed in their current form.

    Also, can we reflect how incredibly dumb it was to give each class a valuable debuff to use, before debuff cap was expanded again. It’s classic, right hand not talking to the left hand.
  18. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    I support reworking alliances so that they are a lot more consistently applied, this is an area of the game where inbuilt inequalities tend to get amplified rather than quashed.

    Either that or just get rid & compensate elsewhere such as in the "regular" stuff a class does.
  19. Tucoh Augur

    Between choices 1 and 2, from a guild/raid leader perspective, which would you chose?

    1. Deprecating alliances by not upgrading them in future expansions.
    2a. Make priest alliances identical to each other so one class isn't stuck on alliance duty
    2b. Make DPS alliances more equitable such that 3-4 average players can fairly reliably fulminate each others alliance and they have the same re-use timer
    2c. Make paladin's alliance more useful on raid targets
  20. Maedhros High King

    1. I don't think they are going to go away. I fully expect to see more of them next expansion.
    Which means that the problems that don't seem so big right now are going to be exacerbated.
    2a. That would be fine with me. Make them overwrite the previous buff. Nobody uses priest alliances for the fulminations, they use them for the individual charges of the ae heals. If they did nothing else, they should dramatically reduce the amount of charges because it was never reduced when they put the new limitations on a few expansions ago. Maybe they would actually fulminate sometimes.
    2b. IMHO dps alliances should be able to be reliably fulminated by 2 very well played players of the same class, or 3 average players.
    Requirements should be adjusted to meet that expectation.
    Bards shouldn't be able to reuse theirs every 6 seconds.
    Rogues should not be able to fulminate from procs of non-rogues.
    Necros need to have the spell number increased from whatever absurd thing it is now, I think 4?!? to something like 16. It will at least take 2 ticks if it expects 16. I mean my slightly above average play on my necro alt I can easily keep 10+ dots on a mob and I know better necros are keeping way more than that on.
    Damage numbers should be the same for all classes that manage to fulminate.
    If a person tries to cast while an alliance of their class is already on, it should bounce and not eat their 1 minute timer. I shouldn't have to use a gina trigger or watch the 200 spells on a boss for an icon before I cast an alliance. Some of the icons are the same. IE Monks and Berserkers too.
    2c. I don't think there should be a secondary component for alliance fulminations. Just give us the same total damage for all classes.

    Most importantly I would love to not have to use a spell slot for this. They should be just a hot button on a hot bar for all classes.
    Wdor and Tucoh like this.