All classes/races available, Random Loot, Luclin Start TLP

Higher than vaniki.

I see one thread, this one, on the front page of the forums. If you're worried about forum cleanliness, maybe ask a moderator to merge the threads together and get a mega-thread set up for the topic? Do you similarly feel that every post stating "this is what MY perfect ruleset would be THIS year" is entirely redundant and actually more of a "problem" than this topic of class inclusion which has far fewer threads devoted to it overall?

Also, how is that a response to what I wrote? I never suggested that we needed multiple threads on the topic?

TLDR: All classes in the game from the start is far more likely an outcome than all races.


Any changes to the game needs to be considered in light of three separate criteria. The first is from a coding standpoint ("CAN we do this?"), second is a design standpoint ("SHOULD we do this?"), and lastly from a financial standpoint ("Will this help the company?").

The coding is actually less a matter of "can we do this" but more of "how difficult is this going to be." There's only so many resources they can dedicate to any particular issue. They can't just throw programmers at a problem to speed it up, there's a wall of diminishing returns, it just doesn't work that way.

The design considerations are more subtle. You have to consider all the ramifications of changes, I'll use Vaniki as an example. In order to have Berserkers in the game from the beginning, they included everything up to GoD at launch. This had the side effect of adding in Gloomingdeep from the start as well, and one of the biggest drawbacks was that the tutorial gear was too good. It outclassed anything you could find in classic, and reduced part of the reward loop in EQ (Kill stuff to get better loot to kill harder stuff to get better loot and so on). The fast xp combined with the level cap meant that the lower level part of the game was irrelevant. I mean, it took five hours to kill Inny on Vaniki for goodness sakes.

The financial standpoint is more straightforward. Any changes have to considered in the context of how much it will cost, either short term or long term. Daybreak is a company, they are in it to make money, and they aren't going to make changes that costs them money in the long term. That's why there will never be a "no krono" server, because that's a large part of their revenue stream.

All of this goes back to the discussion about whether a TLP with all classes/races should be made. Classes are far easier than races, honestly. Since most expansion classes are not locked to a single race, it wouldn't require too much to allow the creation of beastmasters and berserkers in classic. Very little coding would be required, they would just need to make sure BST and BZK were added to the appropriate low level gear, and that their guildmasters spawn. The only real drawback is the lack of epics without a full epic quest rewrite, but honestly, just ignore it. So they can't get their epic for awhile, it won't cripple them. I personally feel epics were a terrible addition to the game, they did it because at first, they thought Kunark would be the only expansion. So not being able to get an epic for a few expansions is fine, in my opinion. All races is a different matter, this would be far too coding intensive to be worth it. Also, race change potions are a thing, so there is an incentive NOT to allow all races, but to definitely allow all classes from the start. So many people race change to Iksar when Kunark opens, it means a bunch of people would pay to race change once their preferred race opens up.

As of right now there is only a single thread with it in the tile but for a while there was multiple threads with it as part of the request for the next TLP server.

Come on Tweak, you're better than this. The lift is way smaller than any of the other custom TLPs they've done. Trainers don't do anything, but if you enable the spell vendors for beast lords you can turn them on when you're there, that's like 9 npcs. Berserker epic is entirely available in era in kunark zones, Beastlord requires moving 3 npcs and two sets of drops, the rest of the quest is already in kunark zones. Kunark class armor is a joke with maybe an interesting clicky, they already have velious class quest armor. Planar armor was already removed just because, adding it back likely isn't a real amount of effort.

Stop pretending like anyone who _wants_ to play a berserker or beastlord from launch would rather not have the option at all than to have the option with whatever it requires. I'd have been fine on my berserker with zero trainer or new item support, the only thing worth doing is the epic and it's already in game.

Sorry when I said trainer I meant spell vendor, you're right, shouldn't be difficult to flag them to a new era, but will still require someone to research what npc's need changing, what items were recently removed to add back in, which items for the epic don't drop and to flag them, what items need to be completely changed which zone they come from or how they are aquired. Then making all the changes, then off to QA to ensure it all works properly. Just because you'd be fine with a handicapped version of a beast or zerker doesn't mean Johnny Nostalgia who hasn't played in 15 years and stumbles back to the next TLP will be, you've seen the type of stuff that gets posted here; 100% chance if all they do is enable the class and don't put in the additional work to include all parts there will be some forum user raging.

Can skip this part, it should still be done in the EQ way to keep it true to EQ

- Spite golems on mischief are dropping naggy loot?
- VT shard fixes aren't actually dropping shards?

Bonus points if these changes introduce a plat dupe for a handful of people to take advantage of before it's rolled back without consequence to the sploiters.

Well...you're not wrong

Then folks are shocked when economies get wrecked.

Everyone take a step back, while I ask Waring_McMarrin "the" question.

Waring_McMarrin, IF the developers said that a tlp server with Beastlords and Berserkers in classic would be easy to create, easy on the resources, quick to implement, and simple to balance, would you be in favor of this server idea?

BST BER (were they made available from classic) should have the same opportunity to be disappointed about the poor quality of PoSKY items as every other class.

"All sorts of issues" - sure, those being mostly comprised of incredibly vague references to *waves hands in the air*

"ideas we know you haven't actually had yet but I am sure you think you will eventually have"

Everything you have said with the exception of your singular salient point about Epic 1.0's which are valid for 1 expension in most cases is weak and badly justified.

My argument has never been about the actual work to unlock it but the design decisions behind the work and the partial release of content. I don't really see how that could be easy to do when you have content that is locked behind zones in other expansions that would still be locked.

And I disagree with that, I see no reason to partially unlock content that is likely to lead to balance issues and more complaints on the forums.

To be fair, the balance in classic can't get any worse. It may be a good thing for the meta to introduce bsts and berserkers.

And would it just end up trading the complaints of not having those classes for complaints about balance and other incomplete items for them instead?

What incomplete items? No class gets epics in classic. The bst and zerker epic are wildly OP compared to other 1.0s so it would be a smart thing to not have them available.

What other quests? Sky at the most? 4 weeks of who cares the loot is trash. With only 4 weeks does anyone actually finish sky quests?

And my post was merely rhetorical and sarcasm because of how bad classic is yet you STILL felt the need to respond. Sigh.

Yes, but as soon as Kunark is unlocked epics are in the game and those are unlikely to be the only incomplete items for the class.

If you know any let me know. I cant think of any. Trakanon already has a bst and ber bp so they won't be missing those.

VP provides plenty of near epic lvl power minus some fluff stats/hp. There are also other weapons available arguably better than some epics.

Youre overtstating the complaints. The balance complaints already are wide spread. Necros can cast a single dot and win any dps race for a named mob. How will a bst or ber affect that? They wont make the situation any worse. It's already as bad as it can be. If anything they will make it less bad and why would any reasonable person not want that? The only complaints would stem from those constantly using the near broken OP balanced classes losing a bit of power conpared to the field.

around and around and around we go.
Everyone says: epics are the only thing they cant have
you say: no various things.
We say: name those various things
you: probably not the only incomplete thing
8 pages of everyone asking you to explain your reasoning and you just copying and pasting your nothing of an answer...

Everyone in this thread except for you would love to have a fully leveled / fully geared toon when they get to Luclin or GoD minus 1 item along the way. 1 out of over 2000 equipable items...

Then you bring up balance, which makes you assume youve not actually played classic or kunark or velious or luclin or...... if you think that classes are balanced in eq.

Then you bring up complaining on the forums which makes me think you are brand new to the tlp forums. Theres complaint threads on here saying that keys are too easy, keys are too hard, raids are too easy, raids should not have motm and be easier, xp is too fast, xp is too slow, all items should be tradable, nothing should be tradable and so on... so the one extra thread of "why cant i finish my epic" to which everyone would reply and say "just be happy you can already play this class" does not seem like it would really add much stress in the devs lives