Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Ngreth Thergn, Jun 13, 2018.
Thanks so much, Ngreth! Great news!
There's a few things already pointed out but there are issues with your logic Ngreth. Technically these potions are instant cast heals that require no secondary resources making them already better than any other spell, so wouldn't the spells need to be at least marginally better before the pots are in?
Like the 65 cleric heal isn't out till GoD that actually beats the potion. But the potion is instant cast, 2 min refresh, manaless (think mana drain fights here) and actually is better than Supernal Elixir
Like how is the argument that these potions nullify mana drain encounters not a thing? The entire point of AOE dmg / Mana drains is resist/mana checks etc. The potions completely trivialize any fight where you take AoE damage or the clerics have no mana to heal you.
Why not just put loot boxes under CT, Bertox, ETC in plane of time?
Hooray this is awesome!
You still need to click auto attack and the potion.
This sounds perfect! I can't wait for all the fun I will have, clicking auto attack and potions.
Why are they being compared to a cleric spell? Like a rogue has the ability to cast a cleric spell? Or a cleric can instantly mana free cast elixir on a 40 man raid every 2 minutes? Seems an arbitrary thing to compare it to.
How about just balance the potion?
Or should we add slow click potions, but only if they are 1% less powerful than the shaman spell!!!11! Don't want it unbalanced!
How about teleport potions, but make sure they are unlocked 1 level above the equivalent druid and wizard spell.
Harm Touch potions, but ONLY if they do 1% less damage than the SK spell, you know, so it's balanced.
Doesn't matter what potions we add, if they are slightly less powerful than the class spells, they are instantly 100% balanced.
Lay on hands potion with a 2 minutes recast next patch? But make it last 1 tick less, for balance etc.
So much hyperbole in this thread. I mean seriously. The people going overboard arguing that a potion makes a cleric irrelevant are laughably pathetic.
The best part is they took the potions out.... analyzed them... and decides on a set of rules for putting them back in.... and people come here and tell the devs they are wrong based on anecdotal evidence...
Elixir of Healing X is required 65 so we compared it to Holy Light which is 3275 (2625+10*level cap 3275) at level 65 which is > Random: 635 to 769
Elixir of Healing IX is level 60 so we compared it to Ethereal Light which is 2000 (1400 + 10*level cap 2000) at level 60 which is > Random: 270 to 328
Yes. It doesn't account for cast time, mana usage, etc.
So a few things:
You are talking about direct heal spells. Holy Light and Ethereal Light are direct heals. The Elixirs of Healing potions are Heal over Time. It's not a good comparison to make when you are looking at 1-hit values versus 5-tick values.
Also, Holy Light (and Holy Elixir) is a GoD quest Spell. Requiring you both have GoD out and you kill in upper tier zones in the expansion to obtain it. However you have the level 65 potions flagged to unlock in PoP. You should be looking at Supernal Light and Supernal Elixir.
The direct Heal potions (Distillate of Divine Healing) are generally considered much worse than the Heal Over Time potions (Distillate of Celestial Healing). The later is the larger issue. My post compares the HoT spells to the HoT potions.
As someone who plays a priest/buffer, it's a bit annoying that it's acceptable to hand out an ability they have because it's only usable every 2 minutes and is slightly lesser potency. I would absolutely kill to have access to a Turgur Potion to only 60% slow every 2minutes instantly for no mana as opposed to the spell being 70% slow for example. Or being able to have access to a DoT potion that's the same amount as a top tier Necro/Shaman/Druid DoT, every 2 minutes. Or being able to have access to an Nuke just 5% short of a top tier Wizard or Magician Nuke, of course only every 2 minutes. etc.
The reason they were balanced when they were introduced in DoN, is the potions maxed at 600 HP/Tick at that time. When gear had 300-350 HP and tanks buffed into 17-20k HP range. But what you're talking about is introducing these same 600 HP/Tick potions in PoP, when tanks have about 10-12k HP and gear has 150-200 HP on it.
To be fair, for rangers who are Luclin and beyond, this will double, maybe even quadruple their actions per minute.
Please go on Test, and have a level 65 tank with nothing but Planes of Power gear on go fight anything in the Planes of Power expansion with only these potions to heal them.
Maybe then you will see how absurd it is that you are comparing a cleric's abilities to a potion that can be used once every two minutes.
First off, the main problem with your analogy is that you are comparing a heal potion's effectiveness in a battle to that of a SLOW or DOT. One heal does not make or break a single fight. It takes multiple heals depending on the group makeup. A single slow can be the main thing that defines whether a battle is lost or won. So, trying to compare giving a heal potion with a 2 minute reuse timer on it to giving a slow potion to someone is like comparing apples and oranges. No comparison.
There's literally no reason to be arguing this at all. Nobody has ever in the history of Everquest been replaced in a group by a potion. Ever. E ... V ... E ... R. Period. End of story.
I feel like you're just arguing this because you're bored at work, and I get that. But, come on. There is NO WAY you actually think this heal potion makes a cleric unneeded in a group. No way. Nope. Nada.
It's always me vs you instead of everyone vs a problem on these forums. The potions are broken for this era regardless of how they function. Parse out how much damage they nullify in an AoE fight and get back to me.
Aoe damage taken vs damage healed with 72 people using pots getting aoe'd? give me a break, it's broken
no one's out here soloing vulak with them either, chill out
I Ann in no way suggesting clerics are replaced by the potion. Anyone who argues this is an idiot, I agree with you.
I'm saying that the potions and 1 tool that clerics have, are of equal power. Which greatly decreases the amount of healing required in AE fights.
Bertoxxulous in PoTime for example, he fires off his Rain Nuke every minute:
 Rain of Bile
Target: Target AE
Range: 300', AE Range: 300'
Resist: Poison -300, Max Resist Chance: 90%
Casting: 0s, Recast: 60s
AE Waves: 3
2: Decrease Current Mana by 275
3: Decrease Current HP by 975
That's roughly three waves for roughly 3k damage every minute assuming you don't Resist it at all. 6k damage every 2 minutes.
Any class in the raid could then reach to their level 65 HoT potion:
 Elixir of Healing X
Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
Duration: 30s (5 ticks) Song, Dispelable: Yes
1: Increase Current HP by 702 per tick (Random: 635 to 769)
Heals between #1 and @1 hit points every 6 seconds for up to %z.
And heal back 702 x 5 = 3510 HP every two minutes. Basically offsetting 50% of the damage done by this AE with a single click. This again assumes a 0 Resist scenario. In a raid where you're VT/EP geared, level 65, with Tribunal and Purifying Chorus running, you will Resist it often and in those cases the Potion covers 100% of the damage done by the AE.
That is the issue. Not that some warrior is able to heal a few rounds of a trash mob in some PoP zone. It's that every person in your raid can carry this and effectively provide an MGB Celestial Regen worth of healing across the raid every 2 minutes.
PoP was the time where MGB rotations became more prevalent. It was regularly a thing to skip say Babnoxis or Blazzax and go for Quavonis while your MGBs refreshed. Or it was a more difficult fight as you had to have your priests cover more AE damage, requiring they stretch their mana to keep everyone alive.
Having these potions released in PoP makes many of the fights that use AE damage to put stress on your healers and provide challenge to otherwise easy Melee / mechanical Raids, total jokes.
I will agree however the slow potion idea was a bit on the hyperbolic side. I do still think that the DoT or Nuke potions are a more apt comparison however.
I think the best argument we've seen is the one Ngreth posted about damage shield potions.
In a perfect world they would scale with levels naturally, but not all expansions reflect the increases in equal proportions (like SoD and underfoot, or PoP and GoD)
The potions would barely matter in Gates of Discord at 65, whereas in Planes of power at 65 they are absolutely amazing.
He's going in the right direction it just needs some tweaking.
Why not decide what's balanced based on what you think is 'balanced'. Comparing a potion to a spell and going "yep balanced" is strange.
Like mentioned above, Shaman slow is 70%, so a potion for 65% slow is automatically balanced?
Harm touch is 15k, so a 14k Harm Touch potion is balanced.
Group heal is 2k, so a 1.9k group heal potion is balanced.
Defensive is 30% damage reduction, so a 28% damage reduction potion is balanced.
Gief me mah potions!
Realistically Elixir of Healing X should go from 702 per tick, to around 150-200 per tick.
I love how you only use half of the truth... There is also
Which is 700 damage per tick dot.... don't see that mentioned in your damage....
Point being there is more damage in that fight then the "6k every 2 mins"
Why not just give free loot to everyone? It is obviously what this crowd wants.
The hyperbole in this post is freakin over the top...
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