"agro as a real thing"

I am very, very concerned over this snippet from the IRC forum held by Elidroth with regards to AA:

It's come up recently here on the forums in context with discussion of SK abilities, too.

My problem is this: the warrior class has gotten nothing but agro tools for the last four years. SK were (rightly) complaining that their agro abilities had stagnated since ... Underfoot? ... but warriors haven't. Incremental all-around level advancements and agro tools since then. More & more agro tools. Agro agro agro all the time agro. It's all the class does now - lock down a mob and survive it.

If a global game design shift makes agro shaky, what the smurf have we been doing with our lives, and what do we do going forward?

Agro, for the last four years at least, has been a solo show: the tank's job. If agro is again made a collaborative effort, a six man group, four archetype, sixteen class ensemble - what are the tanks doing? What use are the dozens of agro tools warriors get? The image in my head is of a community construction project, do those happen around you? Everybody brings their toolbox with a couple hammers, screwdrivers, wrench, gloves, measuring tape, etc and you build something - except one person doesn't bring a toolbox, just a (large) duffel bag full of screwdrivers. That's super, Screw Driver Guy. Thanks for coming.

So, is warrior survivability so hot that we should ignore all the class is not bringing to the table? I know the answer to this: it actually can't be, in group play, or the game would be brokenly unsurvivable for at least 13 other classes. Especially if design shifts to make dps & support classes take hits more frequently due to shakier agro, you can't make their classes so fragile, or the mobs so savage that they can't take a hit. In the "agro is real thing" model, tanks tanking is a desirable goal but not automatic, but also not necessary or the game breaks. That situation was actually witnessed in several spots of Gates of Discord, it was a mess.

It's not dps, tank dps is at an all-time low, like 35%-40% of dps-dps. A current raid weapon for my warrior certainly would help, but my wizard & necro sure aren't using raid things. Warrior dps while in their tanking role has actually, even, and pretty bizarrely, been reined in recently. So that can't be the answer? It could be, I'd like it to be, but it isn't right now. A couple weeks ago I'd have said "whatever" here, since after a couple years I got on board with the consistent message that agro is the warrior's job and not damage... but the whole point here is that I don't get to do that job.

So what's left? You put a character in your party who requires some less mana to heal, with no utility and 1/3 the raw output of alternatives? That sucks.

Anecdotally, just btw: I totally played EverQuest, as a tank, when "agro was a real thing". For years and years, like up through Underfoot, aggressive beastlords and rangers and wizards and even oddly-geared monks made holding agro a real job. In that time, those classes and the groups they were in had that risk of agro not being on a tank sometimes in exchange for a 10-50% damage advantage, not a 250% one. I'd gear up my warrior and use all my abilities and play hard and have the bonus of riposte damage. The line for worthwhile dps was to beat me at all. Really good dps class players would put out 50% more (going long, not talking disc burn here), and take an (occasional. rare, even, I promise!) hit stoically.

And then there's the current situation, where as a tank (group gear) I bust my butt to have 10k sustained dps and comparable actual dps classes are throwing down 25k or 30 (again, sustained, not burn). Raid characters are more like 15 & 40, but the balance doesn't change. That disparity is something tanks (even me! grudgingly, but even me!) have sucked up for the betterment of the team. Tank job in the new model is to nullify agro concerns. Well, it is for now. Who knows what's next.

I think they are more after putting agro into play more, in the old days before the agro meter the wizzys used to call it riding the agro wave. Everyone had agro on there mind and did whatever they had to do to help the tank keep it. Today it seems like a lot of people go into mindless nuking/dps modes and just assume the tank will hold it. While sk's got some needed agro warrior and pallys got some agro taken away, all the warriors and pallys in my guild have had to make some adjustments but nothing that was game breaking. Its the non tank classes that will also have to make adjustments so they are not ganking agro.

Having trouble recalling agro as a real thing myself, all a SHD in original EQ (talking before plane of hate) needed was clinging darkness to have agro overwhelming. I call it agro as a new thing myself.

Iumin, what you describe is not inaccurate. It agrees entirely with what I wrote above, even. I'm not confused by that aim, I just have a problem with it. What you describe is a backing off from the only advancement warriors have had in the last four years.

You don't get other things, you get agro tools this time.
You don't get other things, you get agro tools this time.
You don't get other things, you get agro tools this time.
You don't get other things, you get agro tools this time.

Welp, the job is agro, so that's good.

Now, I need you to not have that agro advantage. <-- my problem.

SK agro has indeed been more consistent than warriors over the course of EverQuest's past 15 years. You may consider yourself excused if you think Elidroth's statement of purpose won't affect you going forward.

Well, from reading what you said, I understand your concern, however.... I have heard similar vision statements, what is going to happen, etc. in the past. They were thinking of doing away with defensives or greatly shortening them, making all fights shorter. Let me tell you, the raid fights right now are anything but short, and we have gained more defensives since then.

I take the comments as meh until something actually comes to pass. It won't necessarily happen just because it is in their vision, ideas become more complicated to implement as you delve into reality.

On Mondays raid we had a agro issue for the first time in a long time, we had a beastlord going nuts on a mob and ganking agro...then at the tanks for not holding it (it could not possibly be him). That said it felt like something was different even now...../shrug

I have seen it said (posted on the forums, but you know what I mean) that "Agro is everyone's job"
I agree.
Vets of the game remember when you actually needed to back out of fights for a few rounds to let the guy ( gal/dog/whatever) tanking get agro again.

This has, by-in-large, been forgotten or never learned depending on when the player started the game. Leading to issues like the twit of a beastlord as posted above.
I cannot see it as a bad thing that everyone in a group needs to be aware of the "actions have consequences" idea, and if you nuke a mob for a solid chunk of its life, you'd better be ready for it to return the favor ( sort of like actual life, if you punch someone in the face, you probably expect them to do the same )

That is a fine model for agro to be on, JackISK. That's how it was in EverQuest for many years. Many years in which dps classes only outdamaged the tank by +10-50%. Over the past four years, dps gains have put them in the range of +200% of tank damage (+1000% of tank damage or more, if discing). Over that same four years, warriors have only gotten agro tools. Now Elidroth's stated intention is to reduce tanks' ability to hold agro - which is the only thing we have gotten abilities to do in the last four years.

Swarming + group = knight dominates group tank role
Swarming + group = warrior locks down agro on himself .....

Must be a typo, or do the Dev's all play SK's?

There's this bit from the chats as well that I found disconcerting:

Fire up the time machine!

This makes no sense whatsoever. What are you trying to say?

Brohg, I see the point you are making, and sadly, have no idea of how its gonna play out.
SK's did just recently get a bone tossed to them ( and the pallies apparently had it stolen from them, but thats a different thread)
Hopefully when they look into this making agro a "thing" again they will revert the "real mobs ignore defensives" issue alot of people are ..less than pleased with, and War's will get back some of their lost dps.

Was under the impression they all played mages up until a few weeks ago myself, or necro's

Phantom Aggressor is overpowered. Not only is it by far the best aggro ability in the game, it doesn't have the major drawback of other aggro pets of high prox aggro, and its reuse time is a fraction is Projection of Fury. And the hate boost is (mostly) instant.

Here's what worries me about possible changes. People probably see their 1-5% hate on the aggro meter and conclude warrior aggro is OP. In reality, it isn't, because in group settings we can't use aggro pets (or Blast of Anger hate AA) on every mob. Our core hate discs were under powered until recently, when they got a major hate boost and an end cost cut.

I think the core spell/disc aggro abilities of all tanks could use a boost. They don't want procs being high hate, so we're stuck in a situation where aggro is more based around activated abilities than ever. The extremes of aggros are generated by AA aggro abilities, which seem to be balanced in a different reality than spells/discs and procs. If they are going to rebalance hate, I hope they focus on adjusting the AA aggro vs aggro spell/disc balance. We don't need to make others be 1% hate on raid bosses, but we do need decent aggro abilities to tag mobs in groups.

They certainly don't play necros

Great idea, let's make agro shakey in a game where tanks get one rounded and every one else gets half rounded....

Man, these Devs are absolutly on fire.

Aggro will never be shakey in raid situations. Locking aggro on a raid target is pretty much what war abilities are made for. And I hope no tank gets one rounded in group content. If they do, they're in the wrong content for their gear/level.

Before the adjustment to mob levels in some HAs the monk type could oneround tanks if they were outside disc due to the flurries. As a bard i got misted far too often for fun, both by the monks if i lagged slightly on pull and also the clerics that stunned me for 8 secs during pull and just walked up coup-de-grace style.