Add maps to the game.

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Strawberry, Jun 12, 2021.

  1. Axel Furry Hats OP

    EQ needs built in maps, /thread. Anyone who disagrees doesn't know how easy it would be for a dev to do just a small amount of work. What does that work include? Unpinning the maps from the Veteran's Lounge and including those EXACT SAME FILES in the EQ download. That's it. Oh and also pay Good a SMALL amount for his work. His maps are literally pinned, the community manager LITERALLY SUPPORTS AND ENCOURAGES PEOPLE TO USE HIS MAPS. PAY HIM, PUT MAPS IN GAME BY DEFAULT.

    Like, how is this even a discussion when the devs literally pin the map download. Just include it in the game. Lazy people smh.
    Jennre likes this.
  2. Strawberry Augur

    You're contradicting your own argument. You first argue people are not supposed to ever have maps, and then you argue the solution is downloading them from a 3rd party site.

    Would these same people arguing that you're not supposed to have maps, be ok if tomorrow EQ removed the map feature altogether? No, players would be upset they can't use maps anymore.

    Your other argument is based on the idea that people are making their own maps. How many of you in this thread who argue against providing maps in the game, actually download maps? My guess is 99+%.

    The fact one can count the amount of "map makers" on one hand, shows almost no one makes their own maps. It is incredibly disingenuous to pretend otherwise, especially when that becomes the basis of your argument. The idea that a new player who likely already has issues even understanding the UI, somehow has to start making their own maps on top of it, is such a ridiculous argument.

    Give me a break, none of you people in this thread make your own maps by hand, even the handful of people making maps have said they use tools to make it easier.

    Maps are shared on beta forums before the expansion is even out, that's how reliant people are on maps. This idea that you're not supposed to have maps when 99% of players rely on them, is pure dishonesty.

    If there is one thing I have never understood about EQ forums (even the old veteran forums) is this concept that we should actually hinder the ability of new players to progress. You would think that EQ players and guilds running out of people to recruit and dwindling server population, would actually like new players enjoying the game instead of them leaving out of frustration because they lack basic features that every other game provides without having to jump over artificial barriers .

    The real entitlement is veteran players arguing that new players should "make their own maps", while they themselves don't make their own maps and use 3rd party sites to get maps.

    It's hypocrisy, entitlement and dishonesty all wrapped into one argument. An argument that actively undermines Everquest's ability to attract new players.

    How about we make sure that everyone has maps by providing them in game instead, like every other game does.
    Petalonyx and Axel like this.
  3. Raccoo Augur

  4. Febb Augur

    I'd rather dev resources be spent on higher prority issues and not on something that map makers have already solved. Making your own maps is very easy and requires very little time invested learning the map tool. There are plenty of resources out on the internet that teach you on how to use the map window.
  5. Strawberry Augur

    It's hard to argue maps are optional when Daybreak stickies them on the top of the front page.

    Maps are an essential part of Everquest to be able to navigate the game, especially for new players. New players do not frequent veteran forums, nor are many people comfortable to download files from 3rd party sites.

    It's good that Daybreak admits that maps are essential to this game, now they need to make sure everyone has access to them by providing them in the game so new players are not left out in the cold.
    Petalonyx and Axel like this.
  6. Vumad Augur

    Should not be the exact same files. There is too much information in the map packs to be included with the client download. They need to remove a lot of the data in the maps down to more basic information like water features, zone boarders and etc. Like in Blightfire, the crossroads camp could be labeled, but to include the locations of all the quest mobs should not be.

    Again, this is only in the included download. People could still choose to download the full file with all the extra information just like they have go to Zam or EQresource to look up quest information.

    EQ doesn't want to be WoW. WoW pins active quest information on the map. EQ (the game, not the players) doesn't want that. EQ just needs to include a map of the roads.
  7. Strawberry Augur

    Really? You think a new player to the game who likely barely understand their UI will have a "very easy time" making maps?

    That player who enters Blightfire Moors at lvl 10 without a map, is expected to spend half an hour running around each zone while getting killed, just to be able to properly navigate the world ?

    Come on.
  8. Bigstomp Augur

    I'm not sure what danger you are finding in a collection of text files.
  9. Febb Augur

    Yes, it requires a little bit of reading but it's not that hard to learn. You're acting like making maps is hard, it's not. I learned it very quickly after LoY released the map tool.
  10. Strawberry Augur

    Some basic computer info. A text file has the same potential as any other file to cause harm to a system.

    Plenty of executable and dynamic linked libraries rely on text files to store scripts and data. Many hacks make use of plain text HTML injections to make contact with their server.

    The hack on EA last week where hackers stole 780 GB of data happened through a simple cookie file, which is nothing but plain text.

    Browsers and operating system warn people of downloading unchecked file, any file, for good reason. There is a reason why Github and other software repositories exist.
  11. Benito EQ Player since 2001.

    There is an easy compromise.

    Map makers or map contributers can send their files to Darkpaw Games. Darkpaw can then verify the safety/integrity of the files and post it on the official website (with instructions to download). The map makers would be properly credited and even reimbursed (Daybreak Cash voucher).
  12. Febb Augur

    Everquest map files don't contain any text that can be harmful to any system. Text files by themselves are harmless, regardless of the contents in the files. It requires an executible file or scripts to pull info from them in order to do damage which none of the downloaded maps from Brewall or Good's have in them.

    The EA hack wasn't just a cookie hijack, that only granted them access into their company slack chat. The hack itself was mainly done with social engineering once they were in the chat.

    The map system in EQ doesn't use cookies and doesn't use slack chat and doesn't give access to other parts of a persons computer just because you unzip some text files into a folder. You're comparing apples to oranges.
    Jennre, Niskin and Jumbur like this.
  13. Strawberry Augur

    You can't even tell if the text file you download is actually from the site you clicked. This is why the push for HTTPS happened. May I remind you that one of the map makers had their site blocked by most browsers because they didn't use HTTPS.

    This is why Github exists, Microsoft keeps an eye on the platform. Not only are you required to disclose your personal information as a form of collateral when you host on Github, Microsoft's algorithms constantly check revision histories and have a security incident response team that can take any file offline in seconds.

    It's not even about the map files being safe or not, it will soon be impossible to download files outside of repositories, just like it will soon be impossible to visit non-https sites.
  14. Axel Furry Hats OP

    I truly hope no one listens to you. You can VERY (like, less than 10 seconds of your time) easily hide a virus inside a text files, especially a collection. Are you saying you verified each text file? IDK if all of the files in my eqmaps folder are .txts. There could be .exes in there and I, along with 99.999999% of the playerbase that has downloaded these maps will not know.

    Yeah, most of us blindly download these maps, and while they currently are trusted, it would be a million times easier to just include the F'ing maps with the game. The devs literally stickied the maps on the forums. Pay Good & Brewall for the rights to their maps and just include them in the game and make everyone's lives a lot easier.
  15. Febb Augur

    The push for https was to help encrypt personal info when filling out information such as your credit card, social security number and other personal info. It wasn't for clicking on links. It is true that browsers are starting to not allow non https traffic but a simple download of a file doesn't need to be encrypted as it doesn't contain any personal info in the exchange.
    nitrocutter likes this.
  16. Aldren Not Black

    I've been using Good's maps for years and he has only obtained one video of me in the shower. I promise you they're almost completely safe.
  17. Syylke_EMarr Augur

    Not quite sure I understand the vehemence of some of these responses. It makes perfect sense for the devs to provide basic maps (terrain and major landmarks/locations) at this point. Yes, I played in 2000 when there were no maps. That is not the EverQuest of today.
    Vumad and Jumbur like this.
  18. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    Serious question: Even if there is a bit of executable code hidden inside a textfile, how would it be executed? if the file is only displayed by notepad or everquest's mapviewer?

    It's not like those programs can start the execution of anything just by reading the code? At worst EQ will just try to interpret the assembly instructions as everquest-map-coordinates and display something funky(or crash)...:confused:
  19. Strawberry Augur

    You can give any file a .txt extension, that doesn't mean it contains only text. What type of file you're actually dealing with is stored in the header of a file, not in the file extension.

    You can compile code in V Studio, open it in any code editor and rename it as a text file. If the user decides to download and overwrite any file that gets loaded into the memory stack at runtime, you can execute that "supposed" harmless text file.

    Even text files that are simply text files can be used to hack PC. This is why there is a giant black market of cookie files. Cookie files are literally plain text files. But your browser loads them into memory, the browser uses a memory pointer to execute them, and you can now send people to the wrong sites and mimic passwords. There is no data integrity check by the browser, no checksum. There should be, but there isn't. This is how EA got hacked last week.
    Jumbur likes this.
  20. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    I see, so the file extension itself doesn't affect how it is opened, it is based on metadata in the header nowadays?(which conveniently doesn't show in file-explore)

    That still means it needs to trick me into clicking on it(for example if I try to open it in notepad, and windows thinks it is a program instead). Everquest reading the infected "txt"-file should still be harmless, as Everquest will not start the execution of the virus, if I understand correctly...