While certainly, an absolute confirmation would be awesome, I am content assuming that it is most likely considered (because Dzarn included it in the calculations) but that the results aren't parsable: Of course, I am not extremely familiar with the test procedures taken to try and observe an effect of hStr, but I can imagine that having a shift of 310 hStr equate to 44 mitigation ac, it would be obscenely hard to parse, and thus look negligible to the general community.
okay we're clearly having some serious differences in terminology here so let me be clear on what i mean by different words. AC = armor class = the value that reduces your DI multiplier. avoidance = the myriad ways you avoid being hit entirely. if you're thinking of 'AC' as being 'the thing displayed in your inventory window' then yes we're talking about different things, because i never ever consider that number in EQ to be anything or reference it directly. i'm not assuming he's wrong, i'm questioning the discrepancy between what the community has known as common knowledge for over a decade (that both AC gains and avoidance gains from Agi are hard capped) with what dzarn posted, which suggests that there isn't a hard cap (or, at least, implies by omission of mentioning the cap that there isn't one).
right - and, mind you i'm not questioning the details of the calculation itself or that the calculation exists within the code, i'm questioning whether that calculation is actually taking place within the game because it was our understanding that it is not, that it was broken and/or bugged and thus not happening. i know how hstr is SUPPOSED to increase AC, we've known about that since heroics came out, but the question is about whether or not it's *actually* doing that.
How could anyone tell if it was actually working or not, in the first place, is my question. How far could people vary their hStr without touching their other mitigation stats, and garner parsable results when what we have seen from this thread shows that the effect is INTENDED to be microscopic at best.
this agility hardcap rumour never made any sense to me. I was in the process of testing it out since im in a position to add over 30 ranks of planar agility. that should see parseable evidence of improvement of some form. I think what Tearsin is wondering is that if it was communicated there was some bottleneck somewhere if its not here than where is it. Then again it may be something that fixed recenetly if so it would verify the information was correct. the effectiveness could very well be hard coded somewhere else but i have always found measurable gains in stat cap raise aa's
for all intents and purposes from a testing standpoint, they couldn't. the idea that hstr improving AC is not working originally came from Brael as far as i know - a god of EQ knowledge who spoke regularly with the devs when heroics first came out. it's why i keep referring to things like this as 'common knowledge' instead of a known fact, because it's info that's been floating around for quite some time and is accepted within some circles, but doesn't have any observable evidence for or against it.
man i would LOVE to see some parses of that - if it's true that AC from agi has no hard or soft cap that would be a pretty big change from the understanding a lot of us have of how stats work with regards to their in-game benefit.
AC as you're defining it only applies to the mitigation server functions. AC also applies to avoidance, so just saying "AC" when you really mean "mitigation" is unclear and potentially confusing to the others reading this thread. At this point I'm repeating myself, so if this still is unclear to you, PM me, otherwise I'm not gonna bore anyone else. I stumbled over this for a second before I realized that this doesn't include the hAgi bonus. The second line should be: ((8000 * (1295 - 40)) / 36000) + (395/10) = 317
You know... this is one place I wish they would go back and really fix the code on... At least stop the headache math that makes my brain cry. There has got to be a better and easyier way to do this......
yes, because that is the definition used by pretty much everyone who knows about and regularly discusses EQ's combat system. to you personally it might, but that is not terminology used by anyone that i know or converse with regularly that discusses this topic. well, i've now repeatedly defined what i mean when i use the terms, so...
the effort taken to compile and post all the math is appreciated...buts its largely meaningless in terms of practical application. increasing your "displayed ac", while its never actually used in any game calculations, will still enable one to tank better as that number grows higher. the only small tangible effect that may be able to be taken away is that ac on an item is more important than any Hstats. mostly applicable to augs.
It also shows that hAgi and agi have more value than was previously thought. Even in cases where you cannot dodge, hAgi has an impact. As for "group knowledge" not lining up what everything Dzarn says, I'd say that the group knowledge is wrong wherever it conflicts with this info. Dzarn has been working through the code looking at how it works. The group knowledge is hearsay, old data that could have been changed or is from lost or unverifiable sources, and parses of varying quality.
Hmmm... I noticed Dzarn didn't say what kind of Int integer variable was used. Long or short, there are many others, depending on operating system and complier used. Yeah, I was a programmer in a previous life, er decade or 3 ago.
i actually missed the part about agi. so Hagi actually might be a bigger bang for the buck than Hdex, but raw ac still better than both? again, i dont know how much of a practical effect this plays when it comes to gearing, and mostly choosing augs. still seems to me raw ac is the most important, followed by Hagi, then Hdex, with Hstr being either "broken" or just such a small part of the calculation its irrelevant.
What if, a tank's biggest bang for their buck might be to just never turn on auto-attack in the first place. How funny is that?
so its interesting... with these calculations I am getting that an item that High AC may not be as good as one that has Less AC but also includes Heroic AGI... however the High AC item is still better than one that is Less AC but has Heroic Dex. Am I mistaken or not? At least thats what my poor head is trying to figure out. This reminds me of back in classic when it was discovered that the Mesh pieces from Guk turned out to absorb more damage than cloth and leather armor because it was calculated as Chain. Man the people doing tests and arguments over that seem so familiar,.
The effects of Hdex are simply not involved in this, they add to your parry and riposte chances, same for Hagi adding to dodge. Dzarn's post was how displayed AC is calculated, not how defensives in EQ work. Hdex still does its amazing 1.8% (or 2%?) chance to avoid attacks per 25 points, and Hagi gives half that amount because it only boosts dodge chance. If your response is "Everything we knew is wrong! I need to change ALL MY AUGS!" then you're probably misunderstanding what exactly was posted. I don't see the reason behind saying this changes how tank augs should be done. Were there Hdex tanks who didn't use the high AC Hdex augs? If you were using 0ac +8hdex augs, then yeah, you should change. But that's just because you picking bad augs before. Maximizing Hdex clusters, then Hagi clusters, while keeping as much AC as possible still looks like the correct plan.
I dont think it matters much as he stated everything after every calculation is truncated. and for the most part you would have to assume (based on the changes to DTs) they will make it able to store what ever the highest value possible is in accordance with the system. Going higher doesn't hurt going lower does from a data intrgity standpoint. IE 255 exists in an int and a double. changing the stored int value to a double doesnt change much (system space but when was that a problem last? 2000?) changing a double to an int is a problem as int's range is 0-255. PS: for you non-coders im not talking about the stat
Agi (and hAgi) will help you avoid damage altogether, but has a very small effect on how much damage you take when you do get hit. It also improves your dodge chance (also avoidance). Raw AC has no effect on avoidance. Raw AC's effects on mitigation are considerable, but the effects are subject to a softcap based on your class. hDex has no effect on either of these calculations, but increases the rate that you parry or riposte (if your class has those abilities). [corrected, thanks Tearsin!] hStr has no effect on avoidance, but a small effect on mitigation if you're using a shield. Which of these is more important is dependent on your class, what kind of mob you're fighting, and how much of each of these stats you have.
