AC vs ACv2?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Sirene_Fippy, Apr 16, 2014.

  1. Kelefane Augur

    This is a good question. Starting in RoF, I actually stopped stacking Hagi/Hdex and went kind of oldschool with my aug approach. Highest AC aug(s) won out instead of strictly looking at heroics. I know heroics are nice and all, but I simpled my entire approach down to that. Keep in my mind, my Hdex is still near 500, so its not like im lacking anything in those departments by doing this.

    So this does make me wonder if its now AC > whatever heroics (where tanks are concerned)

    Anyone care to chime in?
    Elricvonclief likes this.
  2. Tarvas Augur

    Currently working on stacking hdeg and hagi myself on both my ranger and warrior so I am curious too.
    Kelefane and Elricvonclief like this.
  3. Elricvonclief Augur

    Thanks much for the post!

    Kelefane makes a great point. Should tanks concentrate on Heroic Dex or Agility or both or AC? or a combination thereof?
    Kelefane likes this.
  4. Delbaeth Elder

    Dzarn, you have a lot of deductions there. Don't forget your AMT worksheet. :)
  5. Dandin Augur

    From what I can gather. On a pure AC standpoint. It looks like stacking Heroic Strength, to add to the SHEILD AC total. From a pure AC standpoint seems logical..

    But that's alot to process. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding
    Kelefane likes this.
  6. Tarrin Augur

    I am not going to even pretend I know what is going on.

    I'll wait for people better suited than I to give me their synopsis.
    Mintalie, Sinestra, Andarriel and 3 others like this.
  7. gnomeboss Augur

    i've read a dozen posts (none by a dev) over the years saying hstr was broken. so ... that theory is debunked?
  8. Kelefane Augur

    It seems like tanks and augs fall into three different categories these days.

    Tank 1) AC > All
    Tank 2) Hdex > All
    Tank 3) Hagi > All

    So you have the tanks that go oldschool who go for the highest AC despite what heroic is on the aug. Then you have your tanks who stack Hdex despite how much AC is on the aug. Then finally, the tanks that stack Hagi despite how much AC is on the aug too.

    Im getting the feeling, in light of Dzarn's post, that either one or two of those tanks are shooting themselves in the foot pretty dang hard. One of those tanks is right, but which one is it? That is the question.

    A combination of AC/Heroic comes natural with gear and the AC augs since most tend to have Hdex or Hagi already on them. However, most tend to stack either/or and meanwhile, the other tanks just throw caution to the wind and highest AC wins the day.
  9. Marshall Maathers Augur

    I'm a bit tired, but I think I have some kind of grip on what is going on here.

    I want to double check my math and logic in all of this, but from what I can tell:

    1) Of his SK's 1110 'Computed Defense' or 'Avoidance AC' (it is basically how hard it is to land a hit on you):

    0 came from ac on any of his gear (purely highest ac aug sucks for this)
    693 came from defense skill alone (over half way there without any gear!)
    191 came from his 900 capped agi (I included the - 40 in this part of the calc)
    125 came from his 390 hAgi
    100 came from maxed avoidance stat

    Conclusion: If you want to maximize your ability to avoid being hit, hAgi is the only contributing factor from your gear once you have avoidance maxed. Notice ac was never used for any of this calculation..... the 125 Avoidance AC from hAgi is a 13% boost to his SK's total Avoidance AC.

    2) of the 3413 mitigation ac Dzarn's SK has:

    44 came from hStr ([4*(310 / 10)/3]*0.33 + 31)
    6 came from hAgi ((395 / 20)*0.33)

    Let's assume he had an average of 40ac in 21 slots then the contribution from augs would have been:

    4*840/3 * 0.33 = 1120ac would have come from augs (since his gear adequately pushed him over the soft cap without the augs). This would mean his SK's mitigation ac would have been boosted by 50% just from the ac on the augs.

    Conclusion: Your mitigation is not impacted in any real way from hAgi, nor really by hStr, which would more than likely be why people view hStr as broken. The pure ac on your augs will have a much bigger impact.

    None of this will tell you anything about the effect of hDex, but if the mobs have 100% strikethrough you can imagine it can't be doing a whole lot compared to a 13% increase of 'Avoidance AC' from hAgi or the 50% increase in mitigation ac just from the ac value...

    Feel free to question where I came up with any of my numbers, and to prove me wrong. I am very tired.
  10. Kelefane Augur

    Where tanking is concerned, Hdex gives boosts to Parry and Riposte. Where does this fall in line at regarding all of this? You see a majority of tanks who stack heroics, stack Hdex over Hagi. Hagi only gives a boost to Dodge (which is the lowest priority check too) Right?

    Are there any hidden elements here that were not public before?

    What should the pecking order be when deciding on augs?
    AC > Hdex > Hagi ?
    AC > Hagi > Hdex ?

    Or something else?
    Tarvas likes this.
  11. Coruth Augur

    Something that stuck out to me during this was "Mob AC 600" except "Plane of War mob ac 3000"

    Is this true of bosses? And do we overstack AC debuffs on mobs that aren't needed outside of war?
  12. Khat_Nip Augur

    hmmm? 50 is waaaay more than the rest of us have. =p

    Also, you have a typo: It should read (390*400) / 225 = 693. (Just so it doesn't throw anyone off)
  13. Sbbd New Member

    Could you please explain why rangers get a better cap and Multiplier then berserkers and rogues.They are all chain classes.I understand rangers are a Hybrid so things work different for them,for plate classes,SK's and pallys are hybrids and theirs is lower then warriors so should not rangers a chain class be lower then berserkers and rogues?
    Fenudir likes this.
  14. Beimeith Augur

    Because rangers are a poor man's tank, and berserkers and rogues aren't.
  15. Riou Augur

    No, Rangers are considered Light Tanks, since they are part Warrior as such they get superior returns and softcap
  16. Caudyr Augur

    To further elaborate on this...before someone says 'that goes for berserkers, too' the case of berserkers, they gave up a very large portion of their mitigation in exchange for higher damage output and whatnot. At least 'lorewise' that's how it was originally explained.

    I get what the person asking about rangers was saying...but afaik it's always been like this...or has been for such a long time now that it might as well be 'always'.
  17. Kamea Augur

    Dzarn's post makes me wish one thing was done; that the offensive abilities on beta arena/parsing mobs was fixed. Currently the stats on arena mobs are so weak that it's pointless to parse your defensive abilities against them. These mobs should be able to replicate the stats of the group trash and named, and the raid trash and named of the expansion that beta is taking place in. Test too.

    AC is only one determining factor in how a mob can DPS you, if Dzarn's post shows one thing, anyone that thinks that they're able to calculate how their gear/buff setups will actually impact their defense is doing so with a very high margin of error. Nevermind that we'd need ~10 other dev posts like his AC one to remedy these errors.
  18. Schadenfreude Augur

    They get more HPs although you'd be hard pressed to notice these days.
  19. Makavien Augur

    I still use ac +hp/10 > Hdex > Heroic Agil > Hstr for augmenting . Right now on raid bosses dex and agil are almost useless but I am personally not going to switch to stamina lol.
  20. Fooba Elder

    So assuming dzarn was an iksar, he would gain 11 "Mitigation AC"?

    ACSum: 7767
    5470 AC from all items in inventory window
    350 base shield ac + 31 shield ac from heroic strength
    0 from food, drink, tributes, trophies
    (5470 * 4) / 3 = 7293
    I'm above level 50 continue
    class bonuses = 35
    I'm not an NPC or a pet
    I'm not a silk class so:
    7293 + 35 + (390/3) = 7423 + 35
    Armor of Wisdom rank 18 for pal/sk: 7423 + 35 + (620/4) = 7578 +35
    Rank 50 of Hero's Fortitude: 7578 + 35 + (500/4) = 7703 + 35
    Agi > 70: 7703 +35 + (1295 / 20) = 7767 + 35
    Return here for Displayed AC calculation.

    Mitigation AC: 3424.89 [Value returned by 'ac compute' function on the server]
    SK - Level 100: Cap 488: Multiplier: 0.33.
    (488 * 82 / 100) = 400
    488 + 400 = 888
    888 + 381 (shield ac) = 1269 softcap
    7767 +35 > 1269 so:
    7767+35 -1269 = 6498 +35
    (6498+35) * 0.33 = 2155.89
    1269 + 2155.89 = 3424.89

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