Stuns themselves aren't terrible, but throwing them on tons of aggro ability devalues them. Throwing them on an aggro ability that is tied to healing from others which removes our control on WHAT and WHEN things gets stunned is ridiculous. It's as silly as our alliance having a stun component. There's really no purpose, anytime you are using the alliance the stun is of minimal or no value added. Especially since the stun consumes part of the ability budget on overall potency in a balance discussion. Furthermore that's the main reason we were given that our main aggro abilities would NOT be instant cast, so you can see how some of us might not be so happy with them forcing stuns at every chance.
If you wanna do things that warriors can do go make a warrior, if you wanna do things that SKs can do go make an Sk. Paladins have a very useful roll in both group and raid content because they do things that Paladins can do. I really hope they don't end up blanding out the tank classes by giving them all pretty much the same shared abilities. Every other badly designed game out there already does that. In my opinion they should be doing more to define each classes roll in the game by creating larger gaps between what each class is capable of instead of bringing them together and making it all one giant stink pot of the same abilities, wearing the same gear, doing the same damage, same healing, and same tanking. How about the compromise being, give Paladins some nice easy to manage high agro abilities, and then give warriors splash heals, group heals,heals over time, cures, direct heals, abilities that twincast heals, combat discs that heal targets target, long duration stackable mass groupable health buffs, roots, lulls, a larger variety of dps abilities, and Slay the Living - This is a passive ability. Unresistable debuff that resurrects target undead creature and then death touches it. If cast on a living creature this ability will forgo the resurrection and immediately apply the death touch, then resurrect the creature give it a false sense of security and then apply a death touch loop. Combat, casting time instant, rate mod 999. Actually I don't agree with that. I like how a warrior is a warrior and is good at warrior things, and a paladin is a paladin and is good at paladin things, and an sk is an sk and is good at sk things. I don't think we should do anything to muddle the lines there because a lot of other games have that crap and that's one of the reasons I don't play them.
The paladin community isn't asking for the exact same thing, we are voicing our concern that they have completely missed the mark on a new spell line, just like they did with our Dicho last year. Giving us garbage and expecting us not to voice concern because we don't want to "muddle the waters" is ridiculous.
I'm not sure if you didn't think things through or if you really have a hard time grasping the simple issue that is being raised in this thread, since I hope it's the first, let me enlighten you, noone is asking to share side abilities or ways to perform things like tanking aggro and so on. What is being asked here is to be given the tool to perform their primary role which in this case is tanking. Currently it is not possible for 1 of the 3 tank classes, this is something that was changed quite recently in the history of the game and we would like to see fixed. Your idea is as smart as if you were saying paladins shouldn't have any aggro spells but hey, you have heals, aggro abilities are for sk / war, you don't want to blurr class abilities don't you? Try again.
It's really more along the lines of the war/sk versions being ridiculous than yours being underpowered. But, tomato tomatoe eh. At this point in the game's age it seems like if their intent is interchangeability, IE for things like mitigation to be so close between the 3, that other core tanking functions like hate generation should be, too. And right now it is....as long as you don't ride a unicorn. That sounds like cause for a pretty legit beef to me.
Well the problem is the disparity between the abilities, the way they fix it (improving ours, nerfing the others) doesn't really matter, I guess improving ours would be a "nicer" solution.
Yea yea yea bla bla bla words words, I get what the argument is. The answer remains, you are not going to get a change that removes a paladin from where it is currently and places it somewhere else. Rofl at 1 of 3 tank classes can't do their job. Here's the thing cupcake, if a tanks job was dependent upon stealing agro from another tank, all 3 classes could lose that battle depending on the order someone else clicked. Its got nothing to do with harmonious. The battle for agro isn't with other tanks and outside of this ridiculous thread should never be looked at in that way. We've had paladins in primary tanking roles do just fine against an entire raids dps. The ones that know how to play do great. I tell you what, though, you show me one single solitary paladin that said "I could not do my job because of ____ tanks agro" I'll show you either one person that doesn't know how to play their class or two people that don't know how to work together like they're supposed to on a raid or in a group. How is the problem the disparity between the abilities? The disparity is intended, that is not a problem, that's like claiming there is a disparity between warrior healing and paladin healing. Well, duh? Of course there is, that is absolutely intended and is a necessary part of giving a class its identity. Paladins have to work a little harder for agro? Maybe. They don't have to work as hard at a lot of other things. Very much intended, very much the way its supposed to be. I really hope they don't change it.
Extremely poor examples Vindicate. Warriors throughout no point in the 18 year history of Everquest have had Paladin like heals. Paladins on the other hand, until recently, have had very stellar aggro(if not the best), especially pertaining to single target. Also, to claim Paladins may have to "work a little bit harder" at aggro is a bit of a stretch. That might have been more accurate pre EoK due to our lack of AE aggro. That's alright and "was" tolerable. With Harmonius's now in the picture, no amount of "work", skill or effort can surmount it's aggro producing capability. Nothing comes even a tad bit close. You can continue to cover your ears and scream lalala Aristo intended to make these Harmonius spells in order to give two of the three tanks vastly superior aggro advantages and it's perfectly intended. I'm not buying it though
Really? Is this true? Doesn't sound true. Sounds like you made it up. Can't really tell if you're trolling me here by saying a lotta things you just made up....... mostly cuz I'm not all that bright. But I'm ok with that, and I will in fact humor you! This stupid argument is going to lose out to a taunt button every time. Oh me x infinity? Oh back at you +1. So you got 1 bazillion bazillion agwos! Boom mine +1. Its MINES! I'm gonna cover my ears and lalala all day long! I'm unflinching! Can't touch this for 18 seconds duuuh nuh nuh nuh, nuh nuh ,nuh nuh. Can't touch this, breakitdown... OooooOOoooooOOoooOOooo Pansy bearing unicorn riding rainbow strolling bouquet wielding Hammer Time! I've toured around the world, from Freeport to Gfay Its Hammer, go Hammer, heres a flower, fight the power And the rest can go and play You cant touch this..... duh nuh nun nuh, nuh nuh, hiccup
4% aggro not accounted 42 x 36000 = 1.5 mill hate potential 42x 33000 = 1.38 mill hate potential 42x 9300 = 370,000 hate potential That's the hate potential for all 3 abilities not figuring 4% aggro spa or hate mods versus single targets if all 42 charges are used in 4 minutes. The 3rd one is the Paladin ability. On a single target in controlled testing it takes 4 paladin harmo procs to overcome 1 single proc from either of the other 2 classes abilities. More if the duration of the fight is longer due to the 4% hate spa. The stun is not worth that kind of difference imo, we are getting shafted. Where on stunnable content (group stuff mainly where this applies) if heals are too frequent our dps starts to drop due to riposte loss. Where as the other 2 tanks abilities ADD dps no matter what. Just another way it is less desirable for alot of us. Coupled with the fact we already have numerous ways to stun things, and we have no control over when we are getting healed by others, it's value added is minimal in the majority of content due to either immunity, or the overall strong mitigation all tanks have as a baseline.
I still get it, I really really really do. I get it. Now when 3 tanks are standing beside each other on a raid and all doing agro / dps to a raid boss creep mob monster, and when it is Tank C (the paladin)s turn to agro the mob cuz surprise death rotation, what do those numbers up there mean to you, or anybody for that matter. Or ,we'll make it even more complicated. There is no surprise death rotation, but Tank A (the warrior) has been tanking that mob for 2 weeks straight and has over 700 billion billion agro accumulated, and suddenly has a surprise pizza delivery and lets everyone in (chat program of your choice) know that he will be afk for the next 10 minutes, and the raid really must move that mob to the next position or imminent doom and certain life threatening peril is upon the entire raid! Now, Tank C (the paladin) just woke up from an urgent text message, brushed its tooth, logged in, got a raid and task invite, bannered in, and was asked to move the mob. What do those numbers up there mean to you? Is Tank C (the paladin) forced to do something other than what he or she might not normally do? Is Tank A (the warrior) going to hold up the entire raid and keep them immobile until the final tasty piece of that cheese filled pie is devoured or imminent doom and certain life threatening peril is up you??? I think not cupcake! Cuz more than likely Tank C (the paladin) is not a complete idiot! So to get to the point of the matter, does the amount of agro that Tank A (the warrior) generates matter one single solitary bit to Tank C (the paladin) No, absolutely not, of course not. Thank goodness the developers of EQ weren't that stupid. Every single tank in EQ has all the tools they need to handle that situation and many others without even a hiccup. Now if you want to argue whether or not Tank C(the paladin) can generate enough agro to stave off an entire raid going DPS crazy on a burn? Sure they can, they could do that before harmonious came out. You know what, they could nerf that 4% to be 500% per charge for 10,000 charges, with an infinite duration, it wouldn't change the way the paladin played or its role in the raid or group or wherever. It wouldn't change the paladins ability to tank or maintain agro either. If the warrior isn't tanking, its not gonna be using harmonious! It doesn't matter! Every tank in the game already has the ability to generate the entire raids agro in one button press. Taunt can generate infinite agro +1 and is spammable! Tanks already get abilities that circumvent any amount of agro you can generate in game for a duration. Why aren't you guys complaining about that? Oh noes its too powerful, nobody should be given that much power! Its incredulous! Its without measure!!!! Infinite cosmic powerrrrr! Except .... they all..... have it....
They changed taunt: Increased the total hatred granted by a successful taunt to 2% more hatred than the most hated target. its also not spammable, its a 6 sec recast with a fail chance, I try not to rely on it at all if possible.
I must admit I didn't know about the change, but that's even better! And I know what the reuse timer is, I do understand. But, relatively speaking, 6 sec is pretty spammy, I tend to put any ability with a 6-12 sec reuse time on a spam hotkey, with the exception of taunt of course. But its still spammy. I also 100% agree I would not rely on taunt as my sole means of agro generation, but that doesn't change the fact that I use it a lot. I've even used it on a ranger! And, I suppose if you keep reading you can see where I used it in this thread! And, to stay on topic, its just another one of the many tools that every tank gets to compensate for LARGE differences in agro, that can come from... Death Healing agro (probably not so much) DPS generated agro Showing up late to the party Blur mechanics Charm mechanics Not being on the same mob Rotational tanking Warriors using harmonious with the explicit intention of hurting paladins feelings Every tank is more than equipped to deal with each and every one of these situations without too much difficulty at all, it just takes a little practice.
If dps aggro potential is balanced around tanks having access to XYZ tools, which it is 1 class falling behind, slowly but surely means they will be closer and closer to DPS for aggro generation. Eventually the DPS classes will overtake them, and then it's a huge problem. There is precedence for that very thing happening, if you'll recall just afew years ago SKs were in a very poor spot aggro generation wise. The same arguments put forth today were put forth then on why it should not be fixed. Luckily for them it was.
Don't forget, we "scheming SKs" got Pal nerfed at the same time, too (or so a few misguided, vocal people claimed). Two birds yo! Assuming they intended these lines to be within the same ballpark as the other class's versions (big if)....I would think the Pal version should actually be *more* potent in terms of hate per proc compared to the war/sk versions, given that it's single target and the others are pbae without a target limit. Directly comparing them is pretty comical as is.
I was comparing the warrior Single target not AE. There AE version is slightly less aggro per proc than the paladin single version (just glanced at it).
And the reason being....why? Because the order in which tanks generate the most aggro has varied a lot throughout the course of this game. This has nothing to with aggroing other tanks, I'll reexplain slowly for you: if one class has the ability to generate so much more aggro than the other, that class will be the prefered tank for every task you need in a raid to aggro mobs, even you can understand that it's a problem when 1 out of the 3 class get left out for doing it's main role. You are very wrong to think there is no situation a paladin would have trouble aggroing off a DPS class, it is simply not possible to generate enough aggro in those cases because the spells simply don't generate enough and there's nothing you can do about it. It is rather funny that in most high end guilds this is a known issue but in your guild it isn't, maybe play with better dps? Well some years ago, the paladins were the top aggro generating class on single target, care to explain why now it's intended to be so far behind but before it wasn't?
Yep, but its fixed now so you don't have to sweat it any more. Maybe you need to reexplain it even slower and then reread what you wrote. This statement isn't true at all and I really don't feel like sitting here explaining all the reasons why, even though it literally took me like 5 seconds to make a Top 10 list in my head. Yes, I would be very wrong to either think or say this. Its a good thing I didn't. I would also be wrong to think that situationally this can't happen with every tank. I guess I would have to leave it up to the DPS classes as to whether or not they want to live or die. Naaaah, don't really feel like explaining, but its fixed now so you no longer have to worry about it. And, when the next expansion comes out, it will be fixed for that expansion too. Daybreak is probably calling this creative license. Lets not forget you're in their world now, not the other way around.
