4% aggro

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by josh, May 23, 2017.

  1. Seldom Augur

    Oh look here, someone else claiming they out aggro Paladins, "without" Harmonius, this time a Shadowknight main. Afterwards, to top it off, stating we're complainers at the end as well. I wonder what happens when you throw Harmonius into mix if you already out aggro Paladins without?(Rhetorical question, we all already know the answer). FYI: If you're making posts saying you use lifetap proc augs in your raid one hander instead of Rune+DMG or AC augs as a raiding SK, you may want to gain more knowledge about EQing in general before weighing in on these type of topics. There is such a thing in Everquest and video games in general known as over tuned, under tuned and imbalanced/unintended abilities. Inquiring what's going on exactly with the Harmonius abilities should be expected and isn't exactly outside realm of reason considering the plethora of logical reasons already stated above(many being by Wars and SK's).
  2. Terminate Journeyman

    I was merely stating from personal experience :). And no I was not targeting all paladins if you read my post. I clarified with "said" paladins. As far as the rune/lifetap/AC aug, I simply wanted feedback, which I received.
  3. Chaosflux Augur


    Actually an argument can be made lifetap augs in a 1hander are better for SK/Paladin over rune augs if the aggro is not needed, because of Critical heals/Critical blasts (and for paladins Healing Adept).

    Especially if you factor group game and the possibility of bards in the group. Which increases both classes critical healing to >75%, But also boosts the critical nuke portion of the equation by about 5.5% over the course of an evening, Resulting in a very high potential for Double crits from the Lifetap augs.

    Any other form of DD adps (IOG, Cataclysm glyph used regularly, First Spire for SK etc) or Healing modifiers (Basically all the paladin ) massively slants the results in favor of lifetap augs for group game activity. In the group game that 40ac or 45ac aug in your main hand is functionally doing the sum total of all.

    AC augs in the mainhand is and always has been about Magelo padding.

    Lifetap augs do provide more survivability than Rune augs.

    But none of the choices of augs in your mainhand actually functionally matter, Its a hairsplitting argument over fractions of a percent of increase to player power.
    Seldom likes this.
  4. Terminate Journeyman

    /claps for Chaos
  5. Zhaunil_AB Augur

    The point i was making was:
    Nothing is wrong with single-Harmonious.
    (what THIS very thread is about)
    period.


    The other things i posted were about AE harmonious that are part of the discussion here but not really the topic of the thread..
    Yes my main is a warrior.
    And there is nothing "stellar" about the agro (without harmonious).
    It just happens to be the case that i do not need to use harmonious in groups, that the other agro tools at our disposal are more than adequate for that job.
    Except perhaps if i happen to group with a puller and he overdoes it
    (both of which is rarely the case plus i like to do my own pulling anyways)

    I said i am missing my warrior's agro TOOLS on my paladin.
    Because as a warrior i am used to "straight-forward" things, not indirect through stuns or heals or whatever.
    If it exists, i haven't found an equivalent of "scowl" for example...

    You make it sound like harmonious were the only tool we had as warriors...
    I also said that i do not know my paladin well enough to compensate, though i know it can be done
    (in group game for sure and especially leaving harmonious out of the picture)
    If i am NOT missing something on my paladin (yet?), it's harmonious.
    Simply because it's use - to me - is so situational.
    I am also pointing out though that i can not speak for "all paladins" as i am still developing that one and only discovering what his agro tools are.


    What "other 99% of the game"???
    There is the raiding, in which there are SOME situations (a few of which i pointed out) where AE agro is bad, and AE harmonious even worse.
    Then there is the group game, where harmonious (both versions) is not even an issue.
    At most the way it is implemented/triggered.
    Or do you really think that paladins regularly group with Warriors or Shadowknights and when they do can't even sort out who tanks and who does not?
    Raid game and group game - that pretty much sums up to 100% EQ for me.
    So what "other 99% of the game" am i "conveniently ignoring"?

    Oh, and even if YOU do not happen to be a raiding warrior and think you "need" to use harmonious in groups - where is your problem as long as you are the only tank or not fighting with another tank for "the right to tank"?
    (besides that you need some healer to trigger the effect for you of course)
    As a raiding warrior, i have my agro tools and my sword that procs in much the same way as harmonious does for the group game and have no use for harmonious in group game.
    *shrug*
    Just the way it is.
    For me.

    p.s.:
    I also think there MIGHT be some numerical bug involved with harmonious,
    like a fixed-digit "agro-value" variable that overflows at some point and causes you to be low on the list again.
    (like you have 999 points of agro, get 5pts more and are at 4agro on the list because the variable is only holding 3 digits and dropping the 1k...)
    At least that would explain a few of the problems we were having with EoK raidmobs ever since release.
  6. Seldom Augur

    No, this thread wasn't solely about single target Harmonius. OP stated that multiple times and the thread topic "4% aggro" is clearly in the title. Pertaining to your other numerous questions geared toward me, I already answered pretty much all them throughout this thread. Also, like I said a few weeks back at you, not sure what point you're attempting to make O_O. Seems you really like defending Harmonius for someone that rarely ever uses it supposedly though..... I agree with your P.S by the way, the issue comes from the "4% aggro" portion. One of the many reasons it should be addressed
  7. Chaosflux Augur

    Zhaun can we get a TLDR because I am not interested in reading a damn novel.
  8. p2aa Augur

    And it has been stated that the OP numbers are not what you see in reality on 99 % of EQ mobs. Because 99% of EQ mob die in 1 min top and 2-3 charges of harmonious at most procced at best, which equals to less than 50k aggro on these mobs, not 30 million aggro.
    What is fun too is that if paladins had this "4% aggro stuff", then they would not complain.
  9. Chaosflux Augur

    You are completely right we would not complain if we had that SPA added to our harmonious and the Hate value was within the same range as the other tanks.

    The fact it isn't is ludicrous, especially considering the reason it is not is because of the stun. Look at the values of our stuns for hate vs crushes. The devs put a value on that stun, that isn't really indicative of the true value in a given and take.

    If our harmonious had the stun removed, and was within the 20kish +4% aggro range similar to the warrior single target we would have no complaints. There really isn't a good reason it is not.

    Unless you are seeing something no one else is, if you are share it with the class.

    2 charges of harmonious for a Paladin is 19k aggro not 50k, surely you see a how untenable that situation is in comparison.
    Thancra and fransisco like this.
  10. p2aa Augur

    There is a good reason for devs, or they would have given it to you too.
    Despite what some people try to say, paladins aren't in a bad shape at all.
    When you give abilities to the other classes, you need to take into account others aspects of the class.
    How do you rank the fact for example that paladin can solo an EoK T2 named + 3 adds at the same time being his sole healer with a wiz merc, and the other 2 classes cannot ?
    How do you rank the fact that knights, since they received defensive proficiency 24/24 at the same % than warrior with no change to their powerful self healing (especially paladins), can mitigate better than warriors in group content, and warrior keeping only a small edge on raid bosses now ?
    There is more than "class X get this", give me the same. You need to take into account the whole situation.
  11. Chaosflux Augur

    Hold on let me smash my face into a wall so I can properly understand your logic.

    As far as your soloing comment, an SK could perform the same feat, or a cleric, or a chanter, probably a ranger too. All of those classes have some way to handle adds, let alone the fact the paladin wouldn't even need to facetank all those mobs unless they are an idiot. Shackles + Divine stun, park mob done.

    As for your self healing comment and it's power in group content, yes it is powerful. Not going to lie, it does make me able to do group content far easier than a warrior. That's still not a valid reason for less hate for one of the 2 knight classes (the other can self heal too FYI).
  12. Sindaiann Augur

    As far as the T3 KarZok raid goes, that is inaccurate. We actually bunch all the flame and frost mobs at the start of the event and full burn with one warrior fort and switch to next tank as needed. 2 die very quickly with the 3rd and 4th dying before 1st aura/frost occurs.
  13. Seldom Augur

    I'm lost yet again. What exactly are these mythical T2 creatures a Paladin can molo that an SK or Warrior can't? Bringing up a Pal can do something with a wiz merc is very silly in todays Everquest. That debate held more merit back in day when a Paladin dps'd the same as other tanks and a wizard merc on burn wasn't so weak relative to actual player dps output. Wars and SK's "should" both need to use cleric mercs far more than a Pal. Not that good SK's have too many problems going Wiz merc also in molo situations =p
  14. p2aa Augur

    Nope, paladin active self healing on demand is way better than SK passive relying proc self healing. A paladin will do better than a SK on self healing.

    It's not hard to understand. You have weaker aggro than a warrior, but you solo way better than a warrior. Each tank class has his strength and weaknesses. It's class balance. You cannot have a class which has all strengths.

    My guild is kiting the frost mobs until the shield drop, and is killing the flame mobs at start.
    Heard of guilds applying different strategies ? That doesn't mean there is one accurate way to do one event and the others are not.

    A warrior with a cleric merc cannot solo a T2 named and 3 adds at same time, which is not the case of a paladin who can be his own healer and live through the fight.

    All tanks classes have seen a DPS nerf. Warrior lost 30 % of their sustained DPS, and their burn has suffered too. Your sustained DPS provided by your proficiency hasn't changed. I'm not there to check who lost the most, but all tanks got a DPS nerf.
    If you can heal yourself through content, it's still better to bring a wiz merc than a cleric merc.
  15. Chaosflux Augur

    Actually considering how bad a wizard merc is for dps compared to using a cleric merc and a 2hander a very solid argument can be made for a cleric merc.

    With a cleric merc a paladin fully benefits from Harmonious healing, doesn't have to stun, etc, so less mana is wasted on heals and you don't need to use any stuns. Both of those increase your dps, by allowing you to focus on 2hander face tanking and nuking.

    If wizard mercs still did semi viable dps in relation to PCs you'd be right.

    Yes we can heal ourself through some content, blowing mana on Bursts and HOTT heals will burn through mana if you are also trying to maximize dps, very quickly.

    A wizard merc is only 25k dps, being able to consistently use a 2hander and having few or no med breaks while nuking results in more mobs killed in a period of time.

    Also yes warriors can molo a T2 named and 3 adds, atleast if we are comparing raid geared toons. No idea if a group geared warrior could, but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

    Though if you are face tanking a bunch of merbs while moloing you aren't very bright to begin with, it's uneccesary risk for no reward.

    Also furthermore SK self healing is not relying on procs, they have numerous tools (not as many as a paladin admittedly) to handle self healing via bond, ae tap, dicho, etc.

    Procs are less than 5% of their total self healing package. So your point is not grounded in fact.
  16. Sindaiann Augur

    My comment clearly quoted the fact you said anymore than 1 frost/flame per tank is insta-death.

    Is not accurate.

    Never stated anything else so why you are talking about warrior burn and sustained is beyond me.
    Reht likes this.
  17. p2aa Augur

    A raid gear warrior cannot solo a T2 named and 3 adds at the same time.


    For a guild that assign one tank to tank each add, yes tanking 2 of these adds at the same time you will likely die.Of course under fortitude you are taking no hit. I speak of taking melee dmg from 2 of these adds at the same time, so not being under an invul disc.

    This DPS answer was made to a Seldom post quote.
  18. Chaosflux Augur

    Using a merc is not solo, you dictated the terms of this imaginary contest not me. Don't go and try to slither out now and change the terms to pure solo.

    And it's largely irrelevant either way, a geared toon can molo for rot/wall loot, who cares, that doesn't have anything to do with performing the primary function.
  19. p2aa Augur

    Using a merc is soloing for me. You pop a merc and you fight content.I have used the words : paladin + merc, and warrior + merc.
  20. Chaosflux Augur

    And a warrior and merc can do T2 named.