3rd party programs

You need to differentiate between those that modify or inject themselves into the code vs ones which merely rebroadcast your key strokes.

Nope. Doesn't matter, point is if they ban ISB, they will lose a ton of subs. The rest is accurate I feel.

Well, that's true in that it would make it harder to box. We could all go back to sitting around waiting for a cleric to log on. NOT.

While I agree in the case of EQ your bank robber analogy is bad. Alarm companies have routinely employed ex criminals as consultants to improve their alarm systems or safes or what not.

Looking at the Daybreak Terms of Service, Section 10 (CHEATING) it specifically says:
"You may not develop, share, or use any software, program, macro, or interface that modifies the game play in any way or that gives a user any kind of advantage over other end users, except as expressly authorized by Daybreak. "

That begs a few questions:
1. Does the ability to press a single key and have 18 boxed mages all preform the same action give you any advantage over tabbing between 18 instances of EQ to hit the same key 18 times?
2. Does it matter if it's 2 boxed toons, or six, or sixteen? Wouldn't 32 key presses be more difficult than a single press?
3. If using [Unmentioned 3rd Party Software] didn't provide some form of advantage, why are you using it?
4. If, as you said, [Unmentioned 3rd Party Software] is legal to use, why isn't it listed on the TOS as "Expressly authorized by Daybreak" - which would once and for all end this discussion...

The company already said that if you used ISB (in conjunction with the other program that is 100% illegal) or use ISB to do things while you are not at your computer in that case it is illegal. AKA it's what you do with ISB that determines the legality.

Impossible. ISB has no ability to do anything unattended.

Every raid guild that I've raided in has had a large portion of their members using third party programs to their advantage. Anything from using Gina timers to fully automating game play with a keystroke or two. Clerics bots being able to instantly rez players without missing a heal. Operating everything with automated scripts acting faster than any real player can cycle through targets. My raiding has been exclusive to Firiona Vie so far, but in all cases leadership condoned and encouraged it.

It will be interesting to see a new TLP with the removal of some Third party software. Though it is very depending on the willingness of those software's to prevent its use there. I could however see another black market poping up of people creating software that works on this server..

Though with them saying we will stop or work with third party software folks for this server only, leaves me thinking about why not all of them? Does this mean that other servers are no longer legit? will accomplishments on a non 3rd party software have more meaning? Is DBG now in a way acknowledging that <<program not named>> is used and we are not willing to stop it on normal servers but will create one that we will stop it?

I've never used it myself but from what I have read there are plug in's that make it able to perform actions unattended.

Hate to break it to you, Ghubuk, but this was possible ("legally") with the advent of gaming peripherals. As soon as keyboards and controllers were released with programmable elements, this particular Pandora's box was opened. So is your solution to completely ban the use of Nostromo controllers and Logitech keyboards?

And DBG already added the convenience of being able to play the game without actually being there (with mercs). What's more, they allowed its use ingame for almost seven years before changing the policy to outlaw it.

While I agree with your premise, I think this part here is you being willfully obtuse. Like you're completely ignorant of the fact that the antivirus software installed on your computer was developed, in part, by (former) hackers and virus writers. That the digital systems that might be installed in the car you drive are being completely reconfigured and upgraded because of the work of White Hats who took over a Jeep remotely. I actually think there's a parallel between some MMO devs and car manufacturers. They both jump on trends late and drag their feet on fixes (often not making them until they're forced to, for whatever reason, often years later).

But this happens in industries across the business spectrum. And yes, your alarm manufacturers have learned a ton from former burglars, who often consult to tell them how targets are selected and under what circumstances. That's why modern alarm systems turn on your lights at certain times and newer ones have apps that allow you to answer your doorbell remotely. And bank robbers/safe crackers "go legit" and do the same thing. Ponzi schemers often disclose their methods to authorities as part of their plea agreements as well. This isn't news.

Talking about ISB and unattended play.

Nope, that's the OTHER program. That which shall not be named.

Tat

It took some hunting to find, but this was the entire reason I ever checked IS Boxer out(because it was deemed OK by Piestro), and I fell in love with it , and I would hate for using it to be come an issue.....

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...verquest-put-on-notice-stop-now.191668/page-6

1. I'm not gonna create a list of approved programs, however I will say that common sense is more than enough to tell if you are cheating.
   Parsing - Not cheating
   Item Collectors - Not cheating
   Program that has autofire button (and you are still in the general vicinity of the keyboard) - Not cheating
   Swimming on auto-run into a corner to raise up swimming - Not cheating
   Cheating - not allowed.
   If it's reasonable and not unfair it's not cheating. If it gives you an unfair advantage and allows you to do things that can't be normally done in game it's cheating.
   ARCHIVED-Piestro, Dec 3, 2011
   #102
2. 
   ARCHIVED-Tendalos Guest
   
   
   
   Jestical wrote:
   

   “Audio Triggers: Is it a 3rd Party Program? Yes. Does it interact with game code? Yes. Does it give an advantage? Yes. With all the spam, information processing, lack of attention and given that one missed emote can wipe an entire raid the advantages are obvious.
   Built in isn't it?
   Autofire/Binds: 3rd Party Program? Yes Does it interect with game code? Definately. Does it give an advantage? Huge. Using autrofires and binds first of all removes human and game error, your toon in essence becomes a basic bot. It also removes some lag issues, and allows you to do things faster than otherwise possible.
   /autofire on and /autofire off
   If you are talking about the program that was used before /autofire was included in the game well the one I knew of didn't interact with the game code at all. It replicated the indicated key being pressed at an interval at the system level. (Not sure of the bind reference made.)”

   I can understand the caution and worry folks are expressing, I have those concerns as well, though for me its just a parser. I just run it against the actual log anyways so it doesn't touch the game itself, just the log file.
   It is indeed unfortunate that the majority of the players who do not cheat or exploit are experiencing this angst but the folks to blame are those who don't play the game as we do, they cheat...
   ...and there is absolutely no argument anyone can offer to justify cheating in a game.
   ARCHIVED-Tendalos, Dec 4, 2011
   #103
3. 
   ARCHIVED-Shangsung Guest
   
   
   
   Piestro wrote:
   

   “I'm not gonna create a list of approved programs, however I will say that common sense is more than enough to tell if you are cheating.
   Parsing - Not cheating
   Item Collectors - Not cheating
   Program that has autofire button (and you are still in the general vicinity of the keyboard) - Not cheating
   Swimming on auto-run into a corner to raise up swimming - Not cheating
   Cheating - not allowed.
   If it's reasonable and not unfair it's not cheating. If it gives you an unfair advantage and allows you to do things that can't be normally done in game it's cheating.”

   Right, that would be what I'm inclined to think as well.
   But have you guys tested with various item collectors, to make sure that nothing sets off a red flag in whatever you're going to using as your method to catch the hackers?
   I've seen people suspended for warping, when it was a mob summoning.
   I've seen beastlords petitioned, for feign deathing with an AA.
   I've seen Rangers accused of warping, for receiving a CoH.
   Would really like to know that you guys are ready for different scenarios.
   ARCHIVED-Shangsung, Dec 4, 2011
   #104
4. 
   ARCHIVED-Piestro Guest
   
   
   
   Shangsung wrote:
   

   “Piestro wrote:
   

   “I'm not gonna create a list of approved programs, however I will say that common sense is more than enough to tell if you are cheating.
   Parsing - Not cheating
   Item Collectors - Not cheating
   Program that has autofire button (and you are still in the general vicinity of the keyboard) - Not cheating
   Swimming on auto-run into a corner to raise up swimming - Not cheating
   Cheating - not allowed.
   If it's reasonable and not unfair it's not cheating. If it gives you an unfair advantage and allows you to do things that can't be normally done in game it's cheating.”

   Right, that would be what I'm inclined to think as well.
   But have you guys tested with various item collectors, to make sure that nothing sets off a red flag in whatever you're going to using as your method to catch the hackers?
   I've seen people suspended for warping, when it was a mob summoning.
   I've seen beastlords petitioned, for feign deathing with an AA.
   I've seen Rangers accused of warping, for receiving a CoH.
   Would really like to know that you guys are ready for different scenarios.”

   We've been running the code for months eliminating any false positives.
   People are always shocked by the beastlord fd for some reason.

Florencia wrote:

“Can we similarly assume that WinEQ is "okay"?
That's the program I'm hearing the most questions about.”

I don't know anything about WinEQ. It's not something we support, hence it is beyond my normal scope. If a program doesn't allow you to cheat (i.e. do something you couldn't normally do) then it should be fine. It looks to be something that just helps running EQ in multiple windows.

ARCHIVED-Piestro, Dec 5, 2011 Report
#187

sir_goladith wrote:

“
I haven't been effected... yet... They have shown that they are looking for any interference with packets (or I would think so if they want to catch the people using the passive abilities of *** because it can pull information out of the packets without changing them at all.”

If your program does not help you cheat it's not an issue.

ARCHIVED-Piestro, Dec 19, 2011 Report

ISB and <<Program Not Named>> are heavily linked i believe. Are they not from the same general creator?

So if one uses ISB i would think it would not be far fetched that they use <<Program Not Named>>


None the less ISB is a very powerful boxing tool. I just refuse to pay for it.. lol

Ohh if Holly mentioned <<Program Not Named>> by name can we do it now? kinda a pain to talk about an issue when your not allowed to say its name.

Lax (ISB, WinEQ2) was originally a <<Program Not Named>> developer.

They posted about p ninety nine in an official thread months ago and we're not allowed to mention it now so gonna go with no - we will not be able to name it. Besides, the context of her comment was solely in regard to the no-box TLP server launching sometime[tm] this year. It wasn't a discussion or anything other then how it relates to that.

For 16 years they have been unsuccessful in their methods of trying to eradicate that 'program' - so, they made a deal not unfamiliar to us [oh hi p 9 9 arrangement!] to help maintain the integrity of the no box TLP. Anyone that thinks in any shape or form this was an endorsement for the 'program' by DBG is reaching and just trying to bash the company because... idk?

If people pay any attention to TLP they have actively banned/suspended people for exploiting. Any time a major bot group has been reported, such as on these forums, they've been dealt with. Idunno what people expect them to do, and before you say implement a way to block it - well, duh, see above about how they've tried to do that for ages.

They can use invasive anticheat to detect it, but then you have invasive anticheat that people don't like. Plus you can always get around the anticheat, so you are left with the team devoting resources playing cat and mouse with the cheats which means even less content. Most of the really bad stuff (warping etc) should be fairly easy to detect (DBG probably already does) but they have to deal with false positives (lag, random short internet drops, etc being the hardest to get 100% no false positives on) so automated banning etc probably isn't a good idea. Targeting stuff you shouldn't be able to is also easy to detect.

I seem to recall many many many years ago there was an official post or something about warping detection software they had that supposedly worked really well and there were negligible -if any- false positives. While I'm not 100% certain that is the case or what mechanics they utilize now, they have done some stuff to prevent easily detectable cheating server side. For obvious reasons they don't want to tell us what all is in place of course.