Just for a few minutes. I thought you guys should know. It felt great, even if it was just for a fleeting moment. I felt young again, full of life, arms-a-swinging. My group demanded to know why my DPS flatlined and back when on that disgusting shield. I hate my life.
I wore my heavy armor (all of it. I didn't remove my pants nor my much better than pants shield) like a reasonable heavy plate tank yesterday when raiding. I did however stand in the lobby wielding a 2Hdr since the ornament I'm using made it look nice.
The sooner we get over dual-wield being completely worthless (it's been a few years now) and never coming back, the sooner we can move on to much more important things.
I think Dual Wield being 100% useless is pretty important. Among a bunch of other things, it's completely illogical and one dimensional to have sword and board be better for tanking and DPS. Has it been fixed? No. Has this been beaten into the ground? Yes. Beat it some more? Yes. Beat it some more with a 1h and a shield? Unfortunately we have to
Yea, that Elidroth starts off his AA chat with the warriors with "I want to know what direction YOU want the class to go" then he follows it up with "you guys wont be tanking via Dual Wield anymore". Sounds more like, if I wanted to know your what your opinion is, I will give you one. It gets even better... During the launch of the expansion there he is in a photo with his warrior on his monitor, holding 2hs... the most useless weapon a warrior could use under his leadership. And now I see he gets a warrior only weapon named after himself, and its secondary usable? This is the same * that feels warriors should have a shield welded to their gauntlet and bracer. I feel sorry for anyone that is playing a warrior anymore, even BB.
I can get behind preferring a shield when tanking; that is legit. But a shield while DPSing? It doesn't even make sense from any logical standpoint whatsoever and worse of all, it takes what variety warriors have left and poo-poos on it. It's programmed in to give: ++DPS when using a shield ++DPStuff when using a 2H Why can't the same be added for DW that makes it better than a shield? I don't get it. What is the hold up?
Completely worthless? Come on. Warriors should be able to tank better while duel wielding than sword and board. You see it all the time in movies when someone is duel wielding swords. They block with two swords. Parry much better with two swords and dodge incoming blows with ease without a shield. After all Warriors are suppose to be the masters of weaponry!
Except DW hasn't been an option since UF. As cool as it was, it is never getting revived. On that note, maybe in 3 more expansions 2h will be an option again (since they seem to keep adding aa -- though so far it is still garbage)
I'd fix that for you, but.... Come on, cloth wearing duelists (like the Three Musketeers) pranced about effectively in their Forentine style while buckling their swash. But they weren't "thanks to their heavy plate armor" tanks. And when dual weilding was actually used (it was abandoned as awkward and ineffective even by able to move nimbly cloth wearers), it was not with two equal weapons. The offhander was a main gauche or parrying dagger. Lessee, 18 inch dagger held in the off hand vs. a "car door" skillfully employed when fighting drooling ravening monsters. Ummmm I'll take a shield in the hands of a heavy plate tank Monty. Dodge blows with ease in their heavy armor? Really? I think you mean dodge blows with ease in their cloth or at most chain armor. Now I'd have no problem at all with a Warrior (who are masters of effective offensive and defensive strategies, not "show fighting") using a 2Hander landing heavier blows (they should). But a shield appropriate weapon, the kind a tank vs. a Ranger would wield, ought to land fairly heavy blows too. You have seen the DMG/DLY ratios of shield appropriate main handers, right?? I'm all for Warrior appropriate DPS when we're in all of our heavy plate armor (that'd be with a shield) doing our usual role (tanking). And when not tanking (or tanking trivial mobs where damage being taken is meaningless) maintaining Warrior appropriate DPS when using a 2Hander. Shield Specialist fixed an early design oversight that had in-game repercussions when heavy plate tanks were given Shield Block and shield AC being not subject to the softcap was no longer trivial. Shield Block, shield AC not subject to the softcap, and Warriors by some method having access to shield appropriate weapons should all be in the game. Warriors (and Rangers) tanking effectively while DWing, nuh uh. DW doesn't (and shouldn't) provide protection from heavy blows, heavy plate armor (skillfully used) does. It's in great part common to all three classes that tank the heavy armor (shields are the "heaviest" armor in the game) and skill set that makes EQ's heavy plate tanks. The original design team made a monumental error and it was fixed. As an archetype, tanks are more consistent and as a class Warriors are more sensible (than DWing nearly 24/7) as a result.
I'm just curious when did warriors go from taking blows to wanting to give blows or what I consider dps? What happened to the old saying, if you want to be dps, roll a different class?
Warriors are not a pure DPS class. Warriors are a tank class that does DPS just as Paladins are a tank class that heals, cures, does some DPS and SK's pull and do at-range damage. Prior to Kunark Warrior offensive skillcaps were pretty much as high or higher that anyone's. Offensive sir, not just defensive. Is pre-Kunark an early enough "when" for you? How about the posted by SOE years ago and still posted Warrior class description: "Warriors are the masters of armed combat and defense...". Combat not just defense. An early guideline we were told was used was genuine DPS classes 120%, Warriors 100%, Knights and other lower DPSers 75-80%. Things have changed but suggesting 300%, 100%, 120% seems a little overboard I'd think to anyone who was the least bit reasonable. Tanks don't wield rubber swords ya know. They never ever have. Tanks in EQ are not can only get hit guardian/mana sponges. EQ doesn't have and never has had if you want to produce any damage don't roll a tank. Not ever. This is particularly true of Warriors who are pure melee and in the update notes when 2H damage was adjusted (a very long time ago) were specifically told they would do greater melee damage than Paladins and SK's. Less melee damage is one of the costs incurred by those classes having a spellbook. (Look it up if you doubt what I'm saying). If you want a game where only pure DPS classes can contribute to a group or raid's DPS you probably need to find a different product. Like WizardQuest. Being that I prefer a game where fighters (like Warriors) can fight rather than just stand there and take it, I'll continue playing EQ. Asking for (if we don't currently have it) appropriate to the Warrior class DPS when we are performing our usual role and using a shield vs. not trivial content is not, although some might suggest otherwise, unreasonable.
I disagree, parry and riposte even from a person in heavy plate armor is totally feasible and duel wield is a plausible scenario in defensive situations. It has been proven in multiple scenarios that plate armor because of its multiple segments is actually more maneuverable than chain armor because it does not restrict movement in any direction but moves with the motions of the body. Making duel wield more plausible than commonly thought. (Hence the thought "HEY! lets bolster parry and riposte skills in tanking situations with a duel wield combination") .... As if we were talking about real life?... Anyhow back to the point, you see plate adorned characters as big lumbering ox's taking any and all blows and just coming back for more... might as well have a shield to help out... well in that case better take swimming away from mail and plate adorned classes because that doesnt really make sense either. Duel wield was a major choice for warriors not for realistic views but for VARIETY not every class can be the same and as you have attested to above: Any dev that denies us what our class was intended to have in the first place or even better yet WHAT WE HAD FOR OVER 10 YEARS IN GAME is incompetent and I am sick of seeing "Warriors will never have duel wield back"
DW was abandoned even by lightly clad nimble duelists as small swords replaced larger swords in popularity. Look it up. DW is not a defensive set up. Splint, scale, and lamellar armor (none of which are in EQ) was more maneuverable (and easier to manufacture) than heavy plate armor. Consider the Battle of Agincourt. Ah, the Rangers should have those parry and riposte skills in full measure and be the 4th of 4 Equal tanks argument. I like it!! "Thanks to their heavy armor and unheard of stamina Warriors have thew unmatched ability to survive the most brutal battles." Nope - we're talking about the longstanding Warrior class description in EQ. Not just what is sensible for heavy plate tanks (and was practical for 2 of the 3 heavy tank classes). We didn't gain the ability to DW until level 7. Our intended in the first place setups were S&B and 2H. Before Kunark was released there was a Warrior Only shield. So much for the Warriors have always been intended to DW argument (and DW 24/7 in both offensive and defensive situations). There is no statute of limitations for significant bugs or design errors. I believe a dev said DW is not for tanking. They did not take DW away. What they did was corrected a situation where the 1Hdrs Warriors had for use with a shield, unlike the 1Hndrs the other 2 heavy plate tanks have, are totally inappropriate for use with a shield. IF, as should have been the case, all 3 tanks classes could use the same shield appropriate mainhanders and Warriors had access to weak main gauche/parrying daggers for the offhand this conversation wouldn't be taking place. Parry %8 (unlike the Dodge 8% aug) is weak. A parry dagger should be weak compared to the shield AC not subject to the softcap and Shield Block capabilities of a shield. DW is not a tanking setup. The fixed the Warrior lack of shield appropriate 1Hdrs and made shields (which Warrior were intended to be able to practically use from Day 1) practical for Warriors giving us access to shield AC not subject to the softcap and Shield Block which we already had but unlike knights didn't get to use much. Heavy plate tank, tanking, challenging content, shield. <- compelling argument. Heavy plate tank uses 2H for DPS when not tanking <- IMO compelling Nostalgia for using DW nearly 24/7 when it's not in character for the tank archetype. <- not nearly as compelling.
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/index.php?threads/test-update-02-05-13.3636/ I wonder, will we see dps with DW?
http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=23229 2H. I wonder, will we see improved DPS when not tanking from 2H? I hope so.
Except that it has nothing to do with wielding a 2H at all. It is a "2h slashing attack for x damage" in the same way that Strategic Strike and Shield Topple are. Edit: 12 AA for Heroic Blade WAR/254 0 0s 0s 0s Unresistable Single Recourse: [Spell 37195] 1: 2H Slash Attack for 2373 with 1000% Accuracy Mod 2: 2H Slash Attack for 2505 with 500% Accuracy Mod 3: 2H Slash Attack for 2720 with 200% Accuracy Mod Equivalent to rank 1 of Crimson Blade, -- just logged into test and there is no recourse associated with this (if there is, it's invisible...but spell parser also could not find any data for any kind of recourse). So, guessing we can totally expect a "oh lawl sorry I forgot to add the spell" like we got with the Phalanx update -- in which we had to wait a month for the defensive proc to arrive.
They have stated very clearly DW is never going to be a tanking set up it will be a fast (small crit) dps set up and 2 hander will be a slow (big crit) dps set up and sword and shield will remain as our tanking set up. Shields were worthless before the aa that were added to make shields worth using for us back around PoP. So even trying to use the fact we could use them at lvl 1 is not a good argument but either way it doesn't matter anymore. The decisions have already been made.
I hope we do not lose another skill for this. Ie on the same timer as another. It already sucks that Shield Topple/Vital Strike is on same timer with Ridicule!
