2024, Make Paladins !

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Ofearl, Mar 1, 2023.

  1. Ofearl Slayer of all things Stupid

    Lets hear it. Lets be civil. Lets get the attenof the Dev’s and make us great once more! What disc’s need upgrades? Whats spell line is great, what ones need improvements, what lines should be scrapped!? Let’s discuss, AA’s, gear and maybe something cool/Pally specific!!

    1. Alliance, sucks! Waste of a spell gem, I’d use it if it fulinated with an AE splash/rain AoE heal. Took 2 less nukes, and did 2x the damage!
    2. Crush line spells, suck! Ok-ish hate/agro, worthless for actual DPS and the damage is equal to lvl 60 wizard nuke!

    Lets go people, now is the time to make changes for next expansion!
  2. Allayna Augur

    I think you mean Alliance sucks, based on the description you listed. It didn't get upgraded this year and has always been several steps behind other classes, including the SK.

    I agree, crushes blow, as does our admonish line. Limited to loading two crushes due to timers. They are single only. They do nothing for survivability. Admonish line does lower aggro than you'd want as a tank, should put out higher DPS.

    Blunted blade needs an upgrade to the stun component.

    Revitalizing steel needs to be scrapped.

    Aura should be upgraded and made permanent.

    Act of Valor should be scrapped / changed to locking my HP at 1% and making me invulnerable for 18s, while firing off a massive AE heal. I'd still need to recover from that to live.

    Ecliptic or the dicho line is fine.

    Valiant rocks. Continue upgrading with level increase expansions.

    We haven't seen our version of the Reaver's Bargain Disc yet, promised during the 2022 beta that it would be an after beta upgrade. SKs haven't seen an upgrade to RB either. Let's hope they are just waiting for the raids to finish their launch period.

    Separate Divine Stun and the push ability component, make a new AA for push / moving the mob AND make sure that it works on raid NPCs as well as group NPCs like it is supposed to.

    Fix Divine Call so the mob doesn't end up poking your butt.

    I'd honestly like some AE stun spells, targeted (can be limited in number of targets to say 8), and PBAE, unlimited targets, even if on a significant cooldown, like 18 seconds each.

    Combine audacity and honor.

    Penumbral is a great spell.

    Scrap culpability, with the changes to burst, there’s no need for a long reuse self only heal to eat a spell gem.

    Scrap touch heals, they are too slow to be loaded.

    Add a lesser version of spell haste to our hp buff lines. Think, cleric version but an expansion behind.

    And here’s the big one, make an AA to toggle the mechanics of splash, target ring on or off. Target ring on, would function how it currently works. Target ring off, would splash centered on the paladin. Clearly, cleric would need this too.

    A lesser ask would be the ability to toggle the curing component of splash.

    I'll think of more later, but this is an easy wish list for me.
    Tanlie, FranktheBank and Fenthen like this.
  3. Brickhaus Augur


    Do you mean the Alliance line?

    I use our Dicho line all the time.
  4. Lubianx Augur

    I have actually saved our raid a couple of times with AoV (people missing emotes and Gift of Life down). But I do like the 1% and invul thing
  5. Allayna Augur

    Ya, still takes you out of the fight for 18 seconds and a large chance for death, but not a guarantee with my suggested change. The hate from low health may still get you killed as invulnerable fades.
    Fenthen likes this.
  6. Ofearl Slayer of all things Stupid

    #sigh! Yes Alliance not Dicho. It was late, no glasses, tired… maybe a gnome poked me.

    Allayna, has great idea’s, he always does. We dont need giant leaps and bounds to the class but some minor tweaks will go a long way.
  7. Warpeace Augur

    Crush
    We really need a 3rd crush and the damage needs an increase across the spell line.
    Timer 3 looks like a viable choice and is shared with the Force of XXX stun line.

    Blessed Aura
    Aura should be made permanent in the sense it does not fade.

    Suggest Blessed Aura Effect range needs increased to 200 Range. Current range is about 40-50?

    Coalition line
    Reduce the requirement to fulminate. Currently 6 down to 4.
    Increase damage done by fulminating.

    Why is there a stun component? Change to something more useful to group/raid environment.

    Penumbral
    This needs to work with group heals also or it's not so awesome. Alot of raid healing is AE.

    Preservation of the XXX line
    Increase the agro mod from 15% to 25% there is zero reason as a tank we should not have the ability to self-generate the same agro as other tanks.

    Honestly, I would prefer our agro component added to the Wrathful Fury line and the other bits added or combined into our Armor of Unyielding Grace line and the Preservation line can cease.
  8. Allayna Augur

    Crush already being timer locked and also timer locking out some stuns is part of the disadvantage to using them in the first place.

    I agree, aura should be larger and permanent up time until death.

    Coalition/alliance, odd choice of classes left off the upgrade list this year. Ours was terrible at inception, 6 casts of spells that are generally not loaded at all. Make it fire off stun casts as well. Make the fulmination useful, agreed, there's already enough AE healing. I'd love for it to do the damage that our knight counterpart gets and do a PBAE stun around the target of the alliance. It could be small range, like 50'.

    Penumbral I'd like to see work off HTT heals from self too. I could agree, the expansion to other forms of healing like group heals should be added.

    The Preservation line, I'd agree should have equal hate mod with our knight counterpart, but combining it would have to have the counters removed in order to remain useful, otherwise you'd be hitting unity every 5-8 min. I think you left out the benefit of the self healing that comes with it as well. For this I could see them combining stance line with preservation line.

    But I don't disagree, there are many abilities that should be combined into other abilities. As we've "known" an ability for ages it should be combined with other abilities to allow room on the spell bar, or become an AA.
  9. Tucoh Augur

    As someone who boxed a paladin that functioned purely as a DPS + healer, and then ditched him without ever tanking a single mob, I think it's crazy that paladins have such situational DPS. A paladin with a bit of ADPS support fighting Undead in a situation where they can keep Blessing of the Faithful up is really strong, especially with their substantial DPS burns. But the same paladin with the same ADPS fighting live mobs in situations where they can't keep up Blessing of the Faithful and their small number of DPS burns are down is bottom-tier DPS. I'd defer to real paladins on what that disparity is, but it feels like ~4x.

    I don't have any investment in the paladin class because I'm not using him anymore, but I'd be much more tempted to bring my paladin back into the fold if that disparity was reduced in a favorable way (ex: by doubling the baseline paladin DPS even at the cost of reducing the maximum DPS). I'm surprised that DPG hasn't done away with killshot procs in general, since they have increased motivation for players to group since TBM.
    Tanlie and Waitwhat like this.
  10. Qimble Augur

    Gift of Life shouldn't block Lay on Hands adjust the heal over time component of both to be identical. Doesn't matter if that's done by nerfing one or buffing the other. It's counterintuitive, it's dumb, and it's not how it used to work.

    Fix Force of Disruption to have the Yaulp effect work like Divine Stun and Disruptive Persecution. Currently if a paladin doesn't have SV blocked and it somehow gets on them mid-fight they will be locked out of using FoD and have to hunt through their buffs to click it off. While it's not a problem if you have SV buffblocked, I think it's worth the dev time to implement a change so that new / returning players don't have that as part of the learning curve.

    Give us a new Reflexive. I was bummed we didn't get one this xpac and we're still stuck using the CoV version. Ideally adjust the damage/healing down somewhat and lower the refresh to compensate. Or go the other direction and make the refresh match our big or small burns and up the damage/healing.

    Penumbral I'd like to see the single target threat component increased. Lean into the niche of SKs giving better AE threat while ours does superior single target.

    Just scrap the alliance altogether, don't waste dev time updating it. They do not want pallies spamming nukes against undead content for meaningful damage, so just get rid of it. With that in mind, also stop wasting time giving us new ranks of undead nukes.

    Revitalizing Steel should either be scrapped or made into a timed buff rather than having charges.

    Damage. I'd love it if pally damage was entirely reworked to massively increase our sustained non-undead DPS at the cost of lower damage vs undead. If that's off the table, I think Slay should do more. Either in the form of being a constant damage modifier vs undead targets (ie, 100% proc rate) or substantially higher scaling.
    Tanlie and Fenthen like this.
  11. Lubianx Augur

    Please no PBAE stun. That's the biggest problem with that line for us. Raid mobs are stun immune. There is zero benefit for it having any type of stun.

    If the AE healing isn't an option, which I personally prefer, how about an PBAE rune/spell rune or an PBAE version of our Synergy AA. Anything except a stun
    NatazzEvoli likes this.
  12. Qimble Augur

    It'd have to be one hell of a rune to be worth losing that many spell slots.
  13. Lubianx Augur

    Oh I do agree (my preference is a PBAE heal), but anything is better than a stun which doesn't stun
  14. Allayna Augur

    It’s not every year that mobs are stun immune. A rune doesn’t really go with the class, in all reality, it should be massive damage, just like all the other class alliances.
  15. Qimble Augur



    PBAE heal is of limited value IMO since it's hard to time out an alliance triggering at an exact moment. Even a "moderate" rune would have far more general utility. And as Allayna points out, it really should be big damage just like other classes are. If anything, it should be vastly higher damage than any other since it requires people to be casting spells they otherwise shouldn't be.
  16. Warpeace Augur


    Stun is all but useless on a mob anyone would use this spell on, so why keep pushing for that? It just never fit the spell other than their answer for it to do Paladin stuff.

    AE stun was asked for years ago and denied only for AE stun clickies to be put on the loyalty merchant. So I suppose asking for an AE stun is not out of the question with how many we already have access to.
    Lubianx likes this.
  17. Wulfhere Augur

    Good point. The reason is that Force of Disruption is still using a recourse to cast yaulp. The other AA use SPA 374 to cast yaulp directly. The recourse was added to all 3 AA in Dec 2019. The latter two were patched in Aug 2020, but FoD was overlooked and left out of the fix.

    This should be reported as a bug imo.
  18. Keenween Elder

    My (Biggest) Paladin wishes:

    Epic click who scales with our levels and not this poor one (similiar to the Sk,s power Epic Click and not a worthless one, shame to DBG/SOE --> some other class have the a similar problem with the epic)

    Ditcho, not realy helpful (we have enought stuns and heals...) , Stuns dont works against Nameds but the Sk,s drain works againts Nameds. I want more generally DPS to "Live" mobs , example dicho -> 20% more dps to live mobs (its a number), undead is fine.
    I dont want to be a DPS monster againts live mobs but in the moment is realy poor (with a shield i need years for a trash mob to kill it). You can have the Undead AA Vanquish the Fallen, i dont use it often (only pull an undead mob), my slay undeads hits are way higher... give use something better against live mobs or make this AA turn undead ;)

    Our Reflexive Line is emmm, a poor one too, the dmg isnt near the same like SKs, Line (they have 2x big bangs and realy high too) or warrior,s one (sheol can be realy nice with crit).

    Never use crush, not worth a slot (my agro is fine and the dmg from the crush line is to low to use it imo
  19. Ofearl Slayer of all things Stupid

    Alliance/Coalition, lets really break it down.

    Most of the group game will not have multiple Paladins in the group so it isn't worth it.

    In a raid setting the majority of the tank groups depending on the events will usually be war/war/knight/cleric/cleric/something.

    Now back when I was always raiding (might return), knights typically picked up adds as the event was needed. With that Paladins were not usually on the same target. Means if I wanted to use this spell others would have to get off their primary target to focus spells to mine in hopes it fires.

    Raid mobs/adds are immune to stun, that part needs to go away. I'd much rather see it fire off 3-4 damage spells and PBAE heal similar to splash. I could land alliance on the mob and fire 2 crushes, 2 other knights fire off 1 crush each and it fulminates! Id like to see hate be equal 2x the current amount and damage with a crit be close to the 4mil amount atleast.


    61114 Stormwall Coalition Rk. III 114 11968 0.5s 60s T21 18s+ Magic -10 Single Stacking: Holy Alliance 6
    Max Hits: 6 Matching Spells
    Hate: 15163
    1: Increase Spell Damage Taken by 35226 (v484, After Crit)
    2: Limit Target: Single
    3: Limit Effect: Current HP
    4: Limit Type: Detrimental
    5: Limit Min Level: 106
    6: Limit Max Level: 125 (lose 100% per level)
    7: Limit Max Duration: 0s
    8: Limit Min Mana Cost: 10
    9: Limit Effect: Current HP less than -1500
    10: Limit Caster Class: PAL
    11: Limit Caster: Exclude Self
    12: Cast: Stormwall Resolution III if Max Hits Used
    Forms a holy alliance over your target, adding 35226 damage to other Paladin spells (levels 106 to 125 that deal at least 1500 damage) land on that target for up to 18 seconds.
    If 6 spells land in that time, it will trigger Stormwall Resolution III, dealing 1383702 damage and stunning the target for 4 seconds!
  20. Brickhaus Augur

    Please, no more epic talk. They all need to die at this point so we can move on. No one got more screwed than druids with epics. We're still one of the classes that clicks ours at least.

    While not perfect, our Dicho line ability is great in the group game. It's a patch heal, long stun with great resist mod, sneaky crowd control/pulling tool ... and one of our few insta cast spells. I understand the desire for more damage but leave my Dicho line alone please.

    I worry that some of the comments here are clearly raid focused. There is another side to the game ... one that most people spend more time in - the group game. Making any of our abilities better is going to help all aspects of pally life or at least not hurt others. But changing the basic nature of some of our abilities, like a Dicho line revamp or some of the shorten Blunted Blade disc length talk in other threads, affects non-power life.

    As Tucoh stated, there aren't a ton of group only paladin tanks left. Most of us around are near ancient at this point and too lazy or too proud to switch to SKs. Would be nice if some of this effort would help make group Paladin tanks more desirable.

    What's on my general list?
    -Live DPS increase (duh)
    -More buff spaces (and better placement of short term buffs in song window vs regular buff window)
    -Ensuring a solid amount of stun affected mobs in an expansion (IMO should be near all non-named)
    -Ensuring root works on all non-named mobs (non-stunnable, non-rootable regular mobs should not exist)
    -Remember how to place mobs considering our pacify line range (probably one of the few paladins who still uses the line, but most of the time it's worthless due to the way mobs are placed)

    I like most of the talk that I'm seeing so far. But please remember that there is at least one group Paladin tank left.
    Tanlie and Raidmaxxx like this.