Riposte is out of control

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Maedhros, Feb 27, 2023.

  1. Wulfhere Augur

    Hehe well okay .... the logs clearly say that "You" are taking the action. The reason (in parenthesis) you are bashing in this case is because you riposted and have AA to bash on riposte.
    code-zero likes this.
  2. josh Augur

    Here's something to add to the confusion, do mobs have riposte bash?

    [Mon Feb 27 14:57:24 2023] Jakarashev bashes YOU for 8371 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)
  3. Wulfhere Augur

    No. This log line means that the mob riposted your swing and struck through your dodge or shield/staff block attempt.
  4. Wulfhere Augur

    Based on this log line, I would have to say that yes they can.
  5. Lluianae Elder

    I'm aware in Llu's case, but it's the same bracket text I get on my SK when he's riposting mobs without auto attack on. One's from an offensive riposte strikethrough, the other defensive. If we can't distinguish between either then no wonder it's even more confusing.
  6. josh Augur



    [Sun Feb 26 20:21:26 2023] Jakarashev tries to bash YOU, but misses!
    [Sun Feb 26 20:21:36 2023] Jakarashev tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte! (Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:21:36 2023] Jakarashev bashes YOU for 29980 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:21:46 2023] Jakarashev tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte! (Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:21:46 2023] Jakarashev bashes YOU for 21020 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:21:56 2023] Jakarashev tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte! (Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:21:56 2023] Jakarashev bashes YOU for 22334 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:22:06 2023] Jakarashev tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte! (Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:22:06 2023] Jakarashev bashes YOU for 22334 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:22:26 2023] Jakarashev tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte! (Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:22:26 2023] Jakarashev bashes YOU for 35976 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:22:46 2023] Jakarashev bashes YOU for 24408 points of damage. (Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:22:56 2023] Jakarashev tries to bash YOU, but misses!
    [Sun Feb 26 20:23:06 2023] Jakarashev tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte! (Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:23:06 2023] Jakarashev bashes YOU for 35976 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:23:16 2023] Jakarashev tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte! (Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:23:16 2023] Jakarashev bashes YOU for 35976 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:23:26 2023] Jakarashev tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte!
    [Sun Feb 26 20:23:36 2023] Jakarashev tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte!
    [Sun Feb 26 20:23:46 2023] Jakarashev tries to bash YOU, but misses!
    [Sun Feb 26 20:24:06 2023] Jakarashev tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte!
    [Sun Feb 26 20:24:16 2023] Jakarashev tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte! (Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:24:16 2023] Jakarashev bashes YOU for 25224 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:24:26 2023] Jakarashev tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte! (Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:24:26 2023] Jakarashev bashes YOU for 31132 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:24:37 2023] Jakarashev tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte!
    [Sun Feb 26 20:24:47 2023] Jakarashev tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte!
    These bashes are consistently 10 seconds apart. 20 seconds sometimes but lag or movement or something can probably account for that. They can apparently double bash though so i dunno. riposte strikethrough bash does not appear to be a riposte bash.

    I'm leaning towards the messaging is bad and it's very hard to draw conclusions from it.

    EDIT: its not double bash it's just two messages for the same bash
    Wulfhere likes this.
  7. Riou EQResource


    It's additive with your Strikethrough mod2 (35%) so only need 65%+ from AA to reach
  8. Wulfhere Augur

    Ah that's important to know. It'd be more clear what's happening if you include all the melee between you and the mob for a single timestamp (second). That way you can see who has the initiative in the exchange.

    I'm seeing something that might highlight heroic strikethrough vs regular strikethrough.

    [Sun Feb 26 20:22:26 2023] Jakarashev tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte! (Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 26 20:22:26 2023] Jakarashev bashes YOU for 35976 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)

    versus

    [Sun Feb 26 20:22:46 2023] Jakarashev bashes YOU for 24408 points of damage. (Strikethrough)

    I agree it's confusing and I have doubts too. Love to figure it out.
  9. josh Augur


    You are right I forgot about that. I just feel like i remember a patch note where they changed something about 100% strikethrough. maybe I'm conflating it with something else.
  10. josh Augur

    as riou pointed out, we should have 100% strikethrough and should not be getting hit by ripostes at all, if it ever happens it's a weird fluke. This is cuz of the change they made a while ago where struck through ripostes no longer counter attack. I'm pretty sure that is right, but honestly the messaging does confuse me.
  11. Derka Power Ranger

    This thread interests me and I am not a tank nor claim to be but don't raid mobs have 100% strikethrough which negates most defensive benefits of hdex?
  12. josh Augur


    not since ToL, they seem to be mostly at 75%. before that up back to like TBM or something, almost all raid mobs had 100%. I don't think group mobs ever were.
  13. Riou EQResource

    Sometimes but not always, there are 2 Strikethroughs

    Heroic - This is just a value that counters your heroic avoidance benefits from hDex and hAgi, they haven't given us any #'s of this since like TDS, so if a NoS raid mob had say 5000, you would have 0 avoidance benefits from Heroics vs it atm since your heroic stat isn't > 5000

    Regular - This can Strikethrough everything (except misses?)

    Dunno how much they have been inflating Heroic Strikethrough values, but regular Strikethrough I don't think they just blindly do 100%+ for a couple expansions now, unless they want a mob to be able to (I forget what Ngreth posted in Beta back in like ToV or CoV when he changed a lot of general mobs, but raid mobs all try to have like 80%+? now and the group end is more around the 60%? range)


    I think this whole deal was a part of the change to kill the Riposte loop (Riposte a Riposte a Riposte, etc) so now when it hits Strikethrough it just stops and Strikethrough wins (might have limited the loop down too for pre-100% Strikethrough times)
  14. tsiawdroi TittyGOAT

    I would think the snowcone has more to do with not having offensive swings turn into taking damage from mob riposting. The mobs offensive swing that shows riposte strikethrough is exactly that. They tried to hit you, when it got to the riposte check you rolled a riposte, and because of heroic strikethrough, the mob countered your riposte and hit you anyway.

    From some of the logs posted it should be easy to discern whether the riposte is coming from an offensive or defensive round. Whether that is you tried to hit the mob and they riposted that swing or whether the mob tried to hit you and you riposted but still took damage because of strikethrough.

    The spiking in damage can come in a round where most of your offensive attacks are riposte strikethroughs. To negate this you can do what the OP is suggesting or simply not turn auto attack on. It is more pronounced when you actively tanking multiple mobs. As you now have multiple combat rounds incoming from however many mobs and potentially your offensive swings turning into damage taken. A mixture of rounds hitting for max or near max amount, flurries that land, and your offensive attacks turning into damage taken from riposte is how most "one rounded" deaths occur.

    With that said, from my experience so far in NOS the mobs do not hit overly hard. On events where I do not glyph and am typically 2h tanking, I see average hits in the mid 50k to low 60k range. Last week on pit fight I had to blow a glyph because I had 8 mobs on me. I saw 37k for average hit for the first two add waves on 600+ swings (which included tanking 4 mobs on the first wave). I was impressed with the inc healing to not die on that wave with 8. I never once thought to turn off attack or snow cone but I also had the benefit of having sk epic on twice.
  15. Baradorn Lorekeeper

    If the OP would have looked in this thread : https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/raid-boss-strikethrough-or-not.280822/ , he would have found answers to his questions.

    Raid Boss regular strikethrough was 100 % until ToL. It has been changed to around 75 % and this value is going on in NoS.

    All the (Riposte Strikethrough) messages are strikethrough through your ripostes. They are preceded by "but you riposte (Strikethrough)"

    Others (Strikethrough) messages are strikethrough through your other defense (dodge, parry, etc.). They aren't preceded by a message, contrary to Riposte.

    This 75 % message was then figured out by calculating the strikethrough rate of Ripostes which are strikethrough versus those who aren't. A real riposte which won't be strikethrough will have just "but you riposte" message without (Strikethrough) after it.
    Wulfhere and Beimeith like this.
  16. Syylke_EMarr Augur

    It's almost like simply having the Riposte skill on raids is a detriment to a tank's survival now.

    Or, at least, of no real defensive benefit.
  17. Maedhros High King

    I guess I missed that post last year and will scan through it to see if anything is relevant but so far on the first page I don't see any answers.
    I rarely end up tanking boss mobs, so I don't have much of a concern there.
    Tanking 1 mob with a weapon out doesn't seem that excessive in the riposte department.
    I never felt any inclination to use snowcone last year.
    Something seems very different this year.

    I don't know how or why this thread started to talk about how ripostes happen, that is absurdly obvious to me.
    As long as you have a weapon equipped, every time a mob swings at you it can trigger your toons ability to riposte which grants a chance for the mob to riposte and they pretty much always win this battle with their strikethrough. This has nothing to do with whether you are swinging or not, although if you are swinging at it the chances for more ripostes do go up.

    Perhaps it is simply the sheer amount of adds this year that has cause an already existing issue to become more extreme.
    Thinking about the raids last year, it was rare that any given tank would be tanking more than 1 or 2 at a time if they raided in a guild with competent tanks.
    This year there are several events that it is pretty common to end up tanking 4+ things and thats generally when I start to feel the need to use snowcone to eliminate the riposte strikethrough.
    The max hit was 99k and average hit was just under 62k on the shiknar raid that I posted the incoming hits in my OP.
    There are a lot fewer mobs to tank on this raid compared to Pit fight so it makes sense that the mobs would hit harder on average. It would get messy if the adds on Pit fight all hit as hard as the adds on Shiknar.
  18. tsiawdroi TittyGOAT

    62k avg hit is within the ballpark of what I normally see for avg hit for that event. If/when you have sk epic available do you still use snowcone, 1h, 2h? And I guess that is also situational in regards to how many mobs you are actively tanking.

    I guess what I'd really like to see is the total damage taken for an event where you tank with snow cone vs tank with weapon/swinging. If we could see the difference in total damage taken between the two we could then deduce that the majority of it is from riposte strikethrough.

    Edit: For comparison to be as accurate as possible, having the same tank assignment on both runs would be ideal. So that its the same total number of mobs from each run. Granted there can be some difference based on: does your mob get killed first by the ma as opposed to last, kill speed on each run via dps. But, I think a baseline of having same tank assignment for each run would be close enough to see the raw damage difference and be able to then put that into a % from total damage.
  19. Tucoh Augur

    Thanks. Bear with me here, are mobs as likely to strikethrough dodge/parry/block as they are to strike through riposte, such that choosing to use a snowcone to avoid the riposte->strikethrough check should never confer any reduction in incoming hits?
  20. Maedhros High King

    I agree. Planning to go full snowcone on this event for Fridays raids.
    It is very common that I don't have a SK in my group for raids.
    This one is weird, because we don't actually have to kill the blue con shiknar because they just go poof at the end when the boss dies. So that certainly factors into the thought process.
    On the other end of it, with an event like Pit Fight, you don't win the event until all the adds are dead.