I think many people who play MMO do not like long-term progression.

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Strawberry, Feb 14, 2023.

  1. Strawberry Augur

    The most successful online games today aren't MMO.

    Today's most successful online games are lobby games. They're games where you enter a world, and the game world resets after a certain requirement is met.

    EQ has lobbies too of course. EQ has had whole expansions centered around lobby play, like LDON, DoN, DoD, etc. Monster missions too are lobby games.

    Many people treat TLP as lobbies. They play on the server until a certain expansion, they hop off, and restart on the next, etc.

    What all these systems have in common is that all of them cut progression short and a reset of the game world takes place. This is diametrically opposed to a long-term progression system.

    MMO largely died off. I believe because they were too focused on progression and not enough on play and balance resets. MMO went from one of the most successful online genres to one of the least successful in a few years time.

    I think most people, even people playing MMO, actually don't like long-term progression.
    Dre., Iven, Waitwhat and 1 other person like this.
  2. Kaenneth [You require Gold access to view this title]

    If you're saying EQ should be more like Candy Crush, we already have /gems
    Viciado, Silvena, Roxas MM and 3 others like this.
  3. Beimeith Lord of the Game

    200 million people follow the Kardashians on Twitter.

    "Most people" like stupid crap.
    Metanis, tanith, Kaenneth and 11 others like this.
  4. Brontus EQ Player Activist


    Interesting theory worth considering.

    The fact that TLP servers are popular and the fact that many abondon TLP servers after Gates of Discord supports your contention. The classic server phenomemon is now a business model for most MMO studios. So it's not just a Darkpaw problem; it's industry wide.

    As others have mentioned in other threads, players seem to like the feeling where everyone is starting at the same level with relatively the same gear. This shared adversity that EQ provides creates a natural sense of camaraderie that creates a cohesive community. People get to meet other like-minded people and friendships are made. This is the true magic of EverQuest.

    As time progresses and expansions start being released, the community starts to fracture as raiding becomes the predominant form of gameplay, leaving non-raiders, groupers, soloers, scrubs, and casual players in the dust.

    If you are a new player that creates a new character on a live server, chances are you will have a very hard time making friends and fitting into the world. So if you don't get onboard the train when it leaves the station you are realling missing out. This is a perennial MMO problem that really needs to be addressed. Creating an MMO that is more alt friendly and that encourages alts is one way to address this problem of a lack of new blood. Another way is for studios like Darkpaw to create expansion content that intersects with the original continents of Norrath. There should be more multi-use and multi-level zones that encourages players to rub shoulders with each other. I believe Raph Koster talks about this kind of philosophy when he designed common areas in Star Wars Galaxies MMO.

    MMOs like EQ don't seem to age very well. This is because the lead designers keep changing and as a result the vision for the MMO keeps changing. Every expansion seems to favor one type of gameplay and certain classes all based on the personal preferences and biases of the dev team at that time. When viewed in it's totality, EQ is like a dog's breakfast of features and mechanics. The EQ of TLP server at launch is vastly different than the EQ of a live server.

    As you mentioned, the MMO genre never realized it's full potential. I think the people who have been running these studios for all this time need to have the humility to come clean, do some serious soul searching and ask why this happened on their watch.
    AustinFlowers, Iven and Strawberry like this.
  5. FYAD Augur

    I don't think that MMOs were ever "one of the most successful genres." MMOs had 1 wildly successful game made by a developer with established IPs and an extremely dedicated fan base. Everything after that was imitation and venture capital chasing the next big thing that would never come. I think that those of us who actually do like MMOs, and that is a niche audience, I'll admit, do want the long term progression over the lobby reset type game.
  6. Spacemonkey555 Augur

    People play mmos because they're conditioned to see their numbers getting bigger as a personal goal achieved. Take that away and people quit mmos because the gameplay tends to be extremely repetitive. Even with the social element it will get painful and pointless without any goals to achieve.

    The big problem with dreamers who want to replace the whole system with whatever, is that they never have a solid plan to replace the current revenue. EQ is mortgaged to the hilt, they miss a payment people will be around to seize EG7 assets and resell the IP asap. Show DPG a slam dunk revenue stream that's an increase, reliable, and has legs and they may listen to you. Speculate about maybe people might want something different and you will never catch their attention.
  7. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    This may be the case on TLP servers, but most on live enjoy the progression and what it gives them.

    I wouldn't have played for 22 years if the game kept resetting, I really don't understand how those on TLPs can keep doing the same content, over and over and over.....I don't find starting over every year enjoyable. I find having new content, new challenges and new places to die exciting. This is probably why I am not a fan of rehashed zones, no new places to die!
    Kaenneth, CatsPaws and Abbydog like this.
  8. Abbydog Journeyman

    I fear you are suffering from a common misconception. You think that because you feel a certain way that there are a lot more people who agree with you than there really are. The fact that there are numerous live servers with hundreds of people on each who have no interest at all in TLP servers and who continue to level up their one main character with or without alts in support would tend to bear out that the original EQ MMO model is indeed alive and well.
  9. Flatchy Court Jester

    Then it is a good thing they keep making TLP for you short attention span people.

    I thought LDON was probably one of EQ's lowest points in its history. I have to agree with Abbydog above my post.
    Brontus, Kaenneth, Roxas MM and 3 others like this.
  10. Febb Augur

    So what has this to do with the current live game? What are you suggesting? They stop making expansions?
    Kaenneth likes this.
  11. Syylke_EMarr Augur

    Your opinion is basically debunked by the recent, and current, massive rise in popularity of another MMO (FFXIV).

    The main reasons people prefer classic/TLP/etc servers are nostalgia and a reduction of the "barrier to entry." The latter is why WoW went through the "level squish" recently. FFXIV approaches this by making progression engaging, relatively quick, and approachable by anyone, without requiring dedicated assistance from other players.

    EQ TLPs see a playerbase drop in the PoP/GoD era because EQ went through large design shifts in that period, so the game is not the same after those expansions.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare and Kaenneth like this.
  12. Waitwhat Elder

    What was the "level squish" in Wow? I used to play wow but havent been there in years.
  13. Captain Video Augur


    The level cap in their Live game was reduced from 120 to 60, so everything was halved.
    Waitwhat and Syylke_EMarr like this.
  14. Smokezz The Bane Crew

    A few people that continuously post these types of things really should get some funding and start a new game. Maybe you really could do it better and make the next hugely popular game.
    Act of Valor and Roxas MM like this.
  15. Andarriel Everquest player since 2000

    You mean the only expansion were it wasnt hard to lfg and that was using the /lfg i never waited more than 5 min for groups they were fun beacuse of wide variety of different classes that could be made. You could run into a room and fight 5 mobs and each char would be doing there own mob was crazy and fun. Then after that expansion went down hill least looking for group wise. But i agree TLP is for short attention span ppl as they keep making new ones. I dont live in the past the only tlp i ever joined was the ones that gave free xp potion (1 for that server and 1 that was claimable on live) now the tlp just sits in claim with no way of getting rid of it.
    Quatr and Rijacki like this.
  16. Andarriel Everquest player since 2000

    Yea super stupid they should made a better version of tetris or something.
  17. Alnitak Augur

    Funny thing - many will actually take your comment as a serious one.
    But those who you aimed at will not. Because they have sinister reasons to keep posting their nonsense. Or are truly so blind in their imaginary reality that they will not even sense your sarcasm.

    The whole commotion around TLPs is all about money. DPG makes money by Krono-suppliers on TLPs (those few, who truly think that buying their way into TLP progression will make them better somehow, or have a simple OCD to hop from TLP to TLP), and farmers of all kinds make in-game profits by buying Kronos with their farmed pp/items on TLP's and then enjoying Krono's on their life servers.
    The steep cliff-dive of TLP population past Luclin is very simply explained - farming for Kronos becomes less lucrative due to price-structure change in Velious-Luclin era. Only a few dedicated "nostalgia" players remain to merge life servers when time is due.
    Meanwhile another new TLP will be abuzz, or even a couple or more. Populated by few returnees and swarmed by farmers.
    And in a year it will all repeat to the benefit of DPG, farmers and everybody else, and at the expense of those few who entered newish TLP thinking that they've returned in time back to 20 years ago when they were young. Nostalgia is an expensive entertainment.
  18. Smokezz The Bane Crew

    I wasn't actually being sarcastic. If EQ is so bad and they have so many good ideas - start something good. If they're that good of an idea, it would be successful.
    Rijacki likes this.
  19. Alnitak Augur

    Wow, that is truly mean. To seriously advise somebody to go and invest millions (plural) of man-hours into development of a new game because they have some "good ideas" and instill hope of success into them - is borderline "cruel and unusual".
    I thought you were merely sarcastic. My apologies.
    Nennius likes this.
  20. Cicelee Augur

    Some players like to progress and see new content each year.

    Some players like to restart and relive old content each year.

    Breaking news at 11.
    Aiona likes this.