Class Balance - What Does It Mean To You?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Sissruukk, Feb 8, 2023.

  1. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    Wizards shouldn't be used as an example because their DPS is lower then other pure DPS classes?
  2. Lluianae Elder

    What does it mean for me?

    Addressing areas of weakness, both internally within the scope of a class, and within the scope of all classes/roles, within reasonable parameters. Sensible QoL where it'd make a good difference.

    It's how we had some terrific spell, AA and disc lines introduced many moons ago. It's how we had glaring issues addressed to be better for the health of a given class and the game, whether it was in toning down the overpowered or bringing up what's weaker.

    Balance is hitting that sweet spot in class design and performance. Alas, it's for the most part subjective. But there are certainly issues people in general can agree on.
    alanus likes this.
  3. Vumad Cape Wearer


    Correct. Remember the context of what I quoted was Wizards being compared to druids. There is no need to confuse overall gameplay balance with Wizard performance. It's not a fair discussion. The issue with Wizards needs to be discussed independently of class balance as it relates to just about all other classes. If it had been MAG or NEC compared to DRU, then I wouldn't have said anything, but WIZ are so blatantly underperforming that using their performance to compare to DRU performance is just... pointless.
    Rijacki likes this.
  4. Rijacki Just a rare RPer on FV and Oakwynd

    The problem with giving every class something GREAT to bring when they're played well (vs played lazily) is that the lazy players will still insist their class is incredibly broken pointing at the players of other classes who actually use all the tools (or even most of the tools) and say their class, the way they play it, should be like that other class while not acknowledging the effort the other player makes.

    And I agree with you 100%.

    Every class should have more than one great thing they can bring, and the greatness of the things should depend on the abilities of the player. But that also adds complexity to the game which some players already complain about as being a face roll usually because they don't want to pay attention to how one ability, of their own, affects another requiring timing them to maximize them.

    I also agree the wizard is probably the most unbalanced in a bad way of all the classes. That was true, too, back when I played in the before times (LONG before merc were added). My wizard then was being out dpsed by a mage without counting in the pet dps with comparable equipment and comparable ability. I don't know if it changed in the between time, but it's definitely not good now. A well-equiped, well-played wizard would lose out against a decently-equipped, moderately-played mage without counting the pet dps and that's really sad. Wizards have fewer unique tools now since there are more travel options without a porter (and I think there should be those options without a porter) but wizard really hasn't gotten anything else. However, if they were to balance a decently-equipped wizard to match the dps of a similarly equipped mage even without pet let alone with, the better played, better equipped wizard could end up being higher on the parse than a moderately played mage +pet which mage players would howl about since there are situations where having a pet is a liability.

    I have done min/maxing in the past and choose not to go too far into that now. I rate myself as moderately played (and casual:) ) though I do start to optimize a bit. Most of the people I play with are moderate or less and enjoy the game as they are. Pushing all players to be min/max to get the best/most of their character's class would drive a sizable chunk of the player base away. But 'balancing' for that style would create incredible unbalance for min/maxers.
  5. Dre. Altoholic

    Seems to me that moving a class's "base" dps (autoattack, autoskill, poor cooldown synergy/resource use, etc) to be a larger percentage of their maximum performance, would be to everyone's benefit.
  6. Koutarou_E'ci Elder

    To me balance is purely everyone has a meaningful role and should never feel left out.

    Some classes will always do more dps in certain situations, or heal better in some scenarios.
    Brontus likes this.
  7. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    If you are saying it isn't a fair comparison to compare a wizard (DPS) to a druid (Priest) because wizards are underperforming that is the sign of a big problem. The issue shouldn't be the classes used but how the balance ends up being between the two classes.
  8. Lluianae Elder

    While I agree with the first line, the latter doesn't take into account the scope of how wide gaps are, and that matters a big deal. You can have things be viable in general with aspects still being quite imbalanced.
  9. Vumad Cape Wearer


    Yes, a big problem with Wizards. Not a big problem with game balance or priests.

    WIZ has the least utility and should be doing the same or better DPS when compared to MAG/NEC. When comparing MAG/NEC to WIZ, it is very obvious that WIZ is broken. It doesn't do any good to compare a broken WIZ to a DRU. Have a conversation about MAG/NEC vs DRU when discussing game balance. WIZ doesn't belong in the conversation about a DRU until after the clear deficiencies in WIZ performance are corrected.
    Rijacki likes this.
  10. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    And based on what you are saying a comparison between druids and wizards that show druids doing more dps shows that there is a problem and not something to be tossed out because wizards dps is low.
  11. Vumad Cape Wearer


    Sigh. I don't know how to be any more clear.

    Step 1: Compare MAG / NEC to WIZ.
    - Wizard is clearly broken. Fix WIZ.

    Step 2: Compare MAG / NEC to DRU.
    - DRU is not out DPSing MAG / NEC (at least consistently or meaningfully). Tune if necessary.

    Step 3: Compare WIZ to DRU.
    - Waste of time, because WIZ was already addressed at Step 1, so subsequently reviewed at step 2.

    I don't know why you are so aggressively agreeing with me.
    Wizard is broken. Broken is that which are Wizards.
  12. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    I still don't see what your problem with comparing druid and wizard dps to show that wizards have a problem?
  13. Rijacki Just a rare RPer on FV and Oakwynd

    Would you compare the performance of a moped to a formula-1 race car to show the moped is under performing? No, you would compare the moped to small motorcycles as the 'closest' in similarities to type (2 wheels with a motor and a single rider). You could then tune the performance of the moped in a more focused way. If you only tune the performance of the moped to the race car, you would miss tuning the performance to the other 2-wheeled motorized vehicles and possibly make it completely out of balance against those.

    (no intent to imply wizard is a moped or druid is a race car, just pulling other examples I can think of that might be understandable)
    Vumad likes this.
  14. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    Not sure what you are trying to say with comparison as that doesn't make sense at all. Last I checked a wizard is expected to out dps a druid and if parsing shows that they are not it means something is wrong.
  15. kizant Augur

    Wizards are a DPS class first and foremost. They're similar to Zerkers and Rogues. Pet classes are really a different category entirely.

    Right now, they should focus on at least getting melee up to Wizard levels before figuring out where druids and pet classes should be.
    Xeladom, Raccoo, Ssdar and 2 others like this.
  16. Mookus Augur

    Class balance… I thought there were a set of principles classes were evaluated against.well there surely was, but the review process kind of stopped happening lately.

    One principle.. if a class can solo a named or mission or various summoning quest mobs with a mercenary, it should do less group and raid dps than a dps class that cannot.
  17. KushallaFV Playing EverQuest

    One of the bad thing about EQ class design is that all DPS are just measured by single target DPS. They didn’t give themselves any space to design around concepts like single target, 3-5 target/splash/sweep, and AE abilities. This way they can build content to utilize those efficiencies.
  18. Ozon Augur


    Hot take, the mission is poorly designed or named has not been given appropriate abilities
  19. Kaenneth [You require Gold access to view this title]



    What new 18/19s?

    I tried making them on test just now testing every unused combination:


    HHH X
    HHM X
    HHO X
    HHP Devotee's Stealth of the Selenelion
    HHR X
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    MMM X
    MMO X
    MMP X
    MMR X
    MMS X
    MMT X
    MOO X
    MOP X
    MOR X
    MOS X
    MOT X
    MPP X
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    MPS X
    MPT X
    MRR X
    MRS X
    MRT X
    MSS X
    MST X
    MTT X
    OOO X
    OOP X
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    OPR Devotee's Strategy of the Selenelion
    OPS X
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    OST X
    OTT X
    PPP X
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    PPS X
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    PSS Devotee's Assault of the Selenelion
    PST X
    PTT Devotee's Fortification of the Selenelion
    RRR X
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  20. Riou EQResource


    They put in the back data for them (lore groups, spell effects), they aren't available just yet, but likely soon