Class Balance - What Does It Mean To You?

Every year we see a new roadmap come out, and with every patch comes the hope of some sort of "class balance," only to get someone (or a few) post their disappointment with a lack of "class balancing." With that said, what exactly does this mean to you?

Is it that we get to the point of not needing a parse because all DPS are pumping out the same amount of damage?

Is it that all healing classes are healing the same amount?

Does that mean everyone get tracking?

Do we get rid of certain class abilities to "even the playing field?"

If an attempt were made to have "class balancing," what would make you happy?

I would say 2 things:
1. When a person is LFG, they are as likely as any other class to be invited to join a group. A class with a poorly defined role, or a role that is clearly surpassed by another class like DPS and another class does a lot more DPS.
2. It is better to play the class in a group than solo. If a class is so good that grouping is a negative for them, the class is too powerful.

Class balance means there are plenty of people playing every class. When one class starts to all quit you have a problem.

For your #1:
So a cleric should be doing as much DPS as a rogue? Should the rogue also be able to heal the group as well as the cleric?

If a group has a warrior, rogue, wizard, monk, and enchanter, you think they should be able to invite another of the same types they already have and do as well as any other group? (my mock group is the classes I could think of off-the-top of my head that have no healing)

Class balance means (to me) that the classes who are most focused in one particular area should be the best performers there.

When it comes to discerning how classes within those focii should be ranked/balanced, risk should beget reward and similarly extreme power should beget increased risk. (This is why when berserkers were told "You're going to be awesome DPS, but you're going to take a lot of damage doing that DPS", were like, "Ya, that makes sense.")

Also, I really like the idea of expansion-themed boosts to classes that ignore balance. Example: Rallos Zek is marching his armies through Norrath! Warriors and berserkers will have extra power in .... for the first X months of the expansion. (Then switch it to someone else.)

Class balance means making beastlord better! Always better!

Oh.. you had me at class balance!

IMO, any class that is defined as their main role in a game as DPS should be competitive in ALL situations, AE and Single Target.. and I also don't really mind if outside their dps role in a group or raid they can do other things..like Solo namers and/or have a pet or be able to FD or travel anywhere in the game undetected, if their main role is dps.. then they should be competitive with other dps

I also understand total class balance across the game is impossible BUT what we are seeing now is very little effort into any sort of class balance.

We currently have..
-DPS classes (cough casters/dotting classes) close to DOUBLING other dps classes (cough melee)
-Priest classes near DOUBLING other dps classes (cough melee)
-Tank classes doing the same or MORE dps then dps classes (cough melee)

In summation in my perfect world
-all dps classes should be viable to play and bring Roughly +/- 10% the same dps to any group or raid in any AE or single target situation
-tanks.. well they are tanks, while I think they should DEFINITELY be able to pop out some dps they should never, ever, EVER out dps a true dps class.
-priests.. who offer the MOST VITAL part of the game (the ability to stay alive) should ALSO be able to drop some dps BUT they should never do more then a tank and ever EVER do more then a dps class.


One last point.. take the new 18/19s just added. Those augs will add a nice chunk of dps for casters and very little for melee. I guess melee have the attackers BUT they are directly damage NOR affected by focus AAlike the caster proc augs will be (and why more procs anyway isn't this half the lag issue)

I hope to one day again see effort, AT LEAST EFFORT on class balance but I am not holding my breath.

These 3 points made me scratch my head a little.

You said tanks should never ever outDPS a DPS class. So a 1-2 minute fight an SK who hits Harm Touch shouldn't outDPS a true DPS or a pally who gets a few lucky slays on undead in the same time shouldn't either?

What about those DPS classes that think auto-attack or auto-fire are all they need to do? (trust me I have seen it on raids)

I'm not saying DPS classes shouldn't outDPS a tank in say 95% of situations, but definitely not never ever.

The point about priests will have shaman and druids throwing their monitors at you.

Your last point is not correct. The new 18/19s are stat only. If you are talking about ToV and TBL then there are also proc augs for melee (assaulting)

Class balance is 100% about showing effort in preventing a long-lasting meta. There are two approaches.

1. Equity: Making everyone within an archetype interchangeable by sharing key tools and making them perform similarly in a variety of scenarios.
2. Pendulum: Regular updates where everyone gets their 15 minutes in the limelight, and never leaving anyone too far behind for too long.

Ideally you perform some combination of these, but historically, EQ has done neither of these things.

Class balance, as it is in EQ, is largely an emergent phenomenon of complex interaction between various systems. Rather than try to steer it, the devs have just sort of let it land where it lands. Nerfs and boosts rarely seem motivated by class balance, but rather in curbing unintended behavior (anti-griefing, bug squashing, preventing exploits) or unexpected strategies (kiting, swarming, strong soloability or powerleveling) without regard for the collateral damage they cause in class desirability or performance.

While every class has their issues (some more than others) EQ has two long-standing class balance issues:
1. Soloing
2. Benefit from gear vs spell/innate

And then we have mercenaries. Anyone who has seen Journeyman mercenary performance at low levels realizes that player power compared to NPC's is broken at a fundamental level with no thought at all toward addressing it.

Knight classes should not have been given a passive Mangling discipline like AA or MUCH greater ratio 2H weapons than berzerkers.

The new type 18/19 augs with procs and other stuff are put in but haven't made it to live just yet.

-They are adding new ones in the new patch, you just didn't see them yet I reckon.

-Also that is a finepoint about the Harmtouch.. but over the balance of the next 30 fights should point to dps classes as ahead in DPS.

-Also another fine point about slays WHICH I am cool with cause that's specific class abilities.

Appreciate it, I mean your killing undead with a Pali for hrs I figure he is gonna be ahead.. your SK drops a harm touch on a mob, he should beat a dps on that mob. I guess I did say NEVER EVER so you got me. I think most people will get where I am coming from in a logical common sense standpoint.

Similarly when you see half of the new/returning players in the game skew heavily toward the same 4/16 classes, for YEARS, that's a sign as well.

It means my favourite class to play continues to get nerfed.

class balance really falls to situational awareness and playability, some classes will always do better in other areas than other classes. No two situations are the same and no two classes are going to perform within 10% of each other in every situation all the time. class balance as you guys want it, is unobtainable.

This is just how it is. there are PLENTY of other games where the classes are much more homogenized. Variety is what makes EQ awesome compared to all the wow clones out today, just let the devs do what they do .... ohh and side note, if you wanted tracking OP, shoulda made a ranger

I was just tossing the question out there because it has been asked in the past that rogues get tracking as well by some people. Personally, I get around fine without tracking.

for me class balance is a lot more about every class having it's own uniqueness (sp?).
i'd love to see more difference where one class is the best at ae dps ( but still can nuke decent or melee for decent dps ) while the other class offers more single target damage. Stuff like that.
Makes the game a lot more fun imo.

"Balancing" around one game style invariably affects the "balance" for another game style.

Saying that no cleric should ever out DPS a rogue (as an example) doesn't account for a raid-equipped cleric who min/maxes the heck out of their character for AA, gear, spell rotation, etc. vs a rogue played at the lowest ebb of casual with gear several levels out of best (i.e. equipped with T1 group level 105 gear at level 120) and using no AA or disciplines.

If you compare comparably equipped, min/maxed, and played characters, if the rogue doesn't out DPS a cleric, especially one that is primarily healing, then there probably is an issue with balance, but I sincerely doubt that is the case today.

However, if you balance a badly equipped, badly played rogue to out DPS a min/maxed to heck and back cleric, you end up with two classes extremely out of balance. Either a well-equipped and well-played rogue with the rogue balanced in that way would be so far ahead of all other classed or the cleric at all playstyles would be reduced to nearly unplayable or with only one thing they can do.

Class balancing is extremely difficult because there are several different playstyles and levels of equipment.

If classes are balanced only taking into account for max level, full raid equipped, absolute min/maxing, played to the hilt characters (i.e. the 1% of the 1%), every other strata and probably every level range below max will take a significant hit and most will see it as a nerf bat. Every time the devs adjust a spell or ability because of how it performs in a raid setting, this is what happens.

Balance to most in the non-raid game is usually "please don't nerf this one thing about my class that I find fun in a non-raid setting that I know is probably not balanced in a raid".

Side note: Tracking is cheating! or so I say when I am playing a character without track and no tracker in the party (But I have 2 bards, 1 druid, and 1 ranger and LOVE track when I am playing one of those *grin*)

Players absolutely have a "Class Hierarchy" but the developers really do not appear to put much stock in the concept, at least judging EQ by the last 20 years.

That's why you have Druids out-dpsing wizards

I think that class balancing in an MMO is a very difficult task due to the following issues: knowledge, skill, and effort.

Everquest is solely a knowledge based game with skill and effort fighting for second place. If you understand the class, zone, mobs, mechanics, quest lines, and google parameters, then you'll get a lot out of the game. New players can catch up to veteran players quite quickly in this area, as long as they're willing to listen, ask questions, and google relatable topics.

MMO's are not like an FPS game. In an FPS game, players are divided by their ranking. A new player will play against other new players, while pro players will play against other pro players. In Everquest, new players to the genre play with 30 year veterans and vice versa. The skill gap is most commonly seen with Enchanters and Bards. A noob enchanter can charm, mez, memblur, pet-attack, etc, but they struggle to combo the moves. It is like watching a fighter game, where the player keeps pressing kick, kick, kick over and over again with a punch thrown in periodically. Skilled enchanters will do everything including pulling and taking bathroom breaks without any issues. Knowledge and skill overlap is several areas. A new player will figure out most of their issues through trial and group wipes.

Effort is another reason why MMO's are so hard to balance. I've been told that I'm the best cleric ever by pick-up groups, fought over by guilds for my l33t shaman skills, and dumped by groups for my tanking skills. Am I the most knowledgeable player in the majority of my groups? No. Am I the most skilled in the majority of my groups? Another no. Do I play my priest classes like I am playing an FPS? Yes. I am highly active with my button and mouse play, so players notice my effort.

If Daybreak were to balance the game around my playstyle, they would say that Clerics and Shamans are in a perfect spot, BUT Shadowknights need serious buffing. Anyone who just read this sentence already has a five page rebuttal typed up in their head right now. Why have my groups disbanded, while I am tanking? I know which buttons to press when and where. It is because I am a very lazy tank. Groups probably just assumed that I was newish to the game. SK's have a tool set to make anyone look good if they put effort into playing them. Mage is another class which invites laziness into my playstyle.

Who should Daybreak balance the game around? If Daybreak balances the game around effort then the game is balanced. I've taken a wizard and out dps'd several lazy monks in my groups, yet Monks should always be generating more damage than a wizard ever should be.

If Daybreak balances the game around knowledge, then the game is balanced. Google your class, items, raid programs, etc, and you'll catch up eventually.

If Daybreak balances the game around skill, then some questions have to be raised.

Is a noob enchanter close to being as a 30 year veteran enchanter? No.

Is a noob bard close to being as good as a 30 year veteran bard? No.

Is a noob rogue close to being as good as a 30 year veteran rogue? Hmm. What separates a bad rogue from a good rogue? Doesn't stand behind the mob? Doesn't turn on auto-attack? Doesn't watch their aggro meter to know when to evade? I would say that rogues are unbalanced because they have a very low skill ceiling. A veteran can't really outperform a new player by a noticeable margin because the class' tool set doesn't allow it. I've never heard anyone say, "choose this rogue over that rogue because they're better." What I do hear a lot is, "there are only rogues LFG. Let's just wait for a better class to show up."

Of course, the argument changes based upon the expansions as well.

What is balance to me? Every class should be able to bring something GREAT to the group, when they're played at their highest caliber (knowledge, skill, and effort combined). If they don't have the tools to be great, then the player cannot generate a demand for them.

A problem with that example is that you used Wizards. Wizards have been neglected. Druids DPS is offset with their horrific mana consumption and their poor healing. A DRU is as just about as much of a priest as a Paladin is. Druids are basically a Cleric Wiz/Nec Hybrid. Druids are not out performing mages or necros.

Wizards shouldn't be used in this discussion for any reason other than to complain about the neglect of wizards.