I feel Monk/Rogue/Berserker are pure melee dps classes by nature. (By pure melee I mean no mana, i.e. War/Rog/Monk/Berserker. DPS classes with mana are considered hybrids) I am posting the results of a small study I did with these 3 classes. Warriors were not included in this comparison because they are a tank class. I found interesting differences and possibly a request for balancing the dps for these 3 classesSkill------------Berserker---------Rogue----------Monk------Recommendations---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------______________________________________________________________________DBL ATK----------270-----------------------270----------------------280------------Balance to 280 all 3 classesDEFENSE-------390-----------------------440----------------------440------------Balance to 440 all 3 classesDODGE-----------495----------------------520-----------------------540------------Balance Berserker to 520OFFENSE-------365----------------------365-----------------------365------------no change PARRY------------445----------------------495-----------------------0---------------Why monk 0? Balance Berserker to 495 RIPOSTE--------420-----------------------420----------------------445------------Balance to 445 all 3 classesTRIP ATTACK--715-----------------------730----------------------740------------Balance to 740 all 3 classes_____________________________________________________________________---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have taken into consideration the nuances of each of these classes and these particular skills, and I do not see a good reason not to balance these 3 classes as recommended. 1. Berserkers can't tank, and we are chain class like the Rogue and should be able to handle some hits a little better than what we currently do. These changes would allow for more solo/molo play with a merc for Berserkers and improve their dps. 2. Monks dps seems to be lacking when compared to Rogue and Berserker dps and that should be looked at and please consider an adjustment in the future. With their dbl and triple atk highest of the 3 classes, you would think monks would do more dps than what they do. 3. Rogues solo/molo well. They have the dps and considerably higher Defense than Berserkers. Raising their dbl and triple atk to coincide with Monk, while balancing these classes. It would also improve their dps. I would really like some feedback on this post in hopes of getting your blessing for these recommendations. I am open to constructive criticism. What do you think? What are your suggestions and feelings about class balancing for these 3 classes?
Intriguing. I've never looked into the skill cap differences between the melee DPS. My two cents: Rationale - I don't think we should boost berserker survivability for the specific goal of tanking long term, but instead to increase their survivability when a tank dies and the zerk is inevitably the next on aggro. If we says "zerks should be able to tank", we might as well also be saying, "We could stand to lose some DPS in favor of 'tanking' ". Currently, we have a few tools to maximize our survivability here, but they require quick key-presses/clicks to or else we may be screwed. 1. Blood Sustenance: Self-heal for 50% of melee damage dealt for 24 seconds. 2. Uncanny Resilience: 310k rune 3. Zerk BP Clicky: Rune 4. Blood Drinker's Coating Clicky: Self-heal for 2% of damage dealt for 3 minutes. (Upgraded with questing in the newest expansion with Spirit Drinker's Coating and 4%). As to the balance between the classes, I don't think balance means "equal". I have no problem with berserkers having the lowest defensive skill (defense, dodge, parry) caps as it's well within the berserker lore. To me, it also makes sense that monks are king-of-the-hill for double/triple attack and riposte. It just makes sense lore-wise. Where I think berserkers should be far and away tops is in Offense. Offense plays into the part of the "attack" formula that increases the average damage dealt by an landed hit. The focus is BIG NUMBERS and for that reason, the zerk focus should be hitting max damage more frequently-- thus the Offense stat. Kick zerks to 450 Offense. I have no idea what that will do (if anything), but I sure like the look of the number.
yes they are all melee dps that have no mana, but that does not mean they are the same. There is no good reason that they should all have the same skill caps, and there are many reasons that they don't and should not. Aside from the obvious things like different class weapon restrictions, there are also typical weapon delays, class flavor and class lore/description. For example, the defensive skill. Berserker was meant to be a glass canon that dealt a lot of damage but was ill suited to taking damage. Even though they eventually got Uncanny Resolution which is absurdly OP and goes against the class flavor to an extreme degree. There are so many years of discs and aa's that would get benefits from dramatic alterations to skill caps that are hard to predict. If anything, I would advocate that if we were going to take a look a melee skill caps, I would lean even more heavily into differentiation rather than homogenization. I'd much prefer to see melee classes that all do different things rather than all be the same.
Monks are higher in several of these categories but they are explicitly lower than both other classes in DPS. Including monks in this, is really just a way for you to try to make an excuse to further increase your classes stats and further expand the lead in dps you have. None of your changes will help monks. Berserkers are not intended to tank. Rogues are not intended to tank. Monks are really not intended to tank, just survive pulls. Rogues and Zerkers are not intended to be in the front cone at all, monks are intended to be in front of the mob more, that is the reason for the monk having higher riposte and well as just for pulling reasons. The classes are different, they are intended to be different. The skill differences are an expression of those differences. If you want stats to be made the same, then first have them make all of the DPS be in the same tier.
I'd say remove parry and riposte from berserkers. How can a berserker going completely berserk even think about riposting, or anything at all in their bloodfogged brains?
Lore-wise I don't think it makes sense for the pure melee DPS to have much parity between their skills. But gameplay-wise I think all three classes are functionally equivalent in most combat situations, so it'd probably make it easier to maintain parity between them if the skills were balanced. Adding parry to monk makes the most sense because monks are supposed to be more defensive and are trailing where they should be.
Monks (along with Rangers, a hybrid and thus not under discussion here) are considered “light tanks” because of the fact that they are (were? Don’t see much of it in the raid game and the group game is lol) pullers. Monks also have the UPGRADED version of Parry : Block. Initially set to fire off twice as often as Parry, I don’t know how the relative activation rates have changed with Heroics, especially given the 95% cap that was put in place because Monks in particular were basically immune to melee for a while. Do y’all really want to downgrade Monks defensive ability by giving them Parry instead? Its the same defensive skill check (Hit/Miss, Riposte, Parry/Block, Dodge). Double Attack - honestly this one is a frankly irrelevant point to argue. Who’s only attacking once? Double Attack rates (especially if you’ve had access to the Direwolf Totem of Battle and/or ranger buffs) has been 100% since TSS or so. Defense - I’m honestly surprised that Rogues have it as high as Monks. Given that Monks are considered “light tanks” (the actual proof of that is long gone, though it came up during comparative discussions between Ranger and Monk ability to take hits during SoF) and that Rogues are simply DPS, I’d have expected Rogue Defense skill to be closer to that of Berserker. Seeing as Berserkers give up thoughts of Defense in favor of Offense, there’s no reason at all to raise Defense to the same level as that of Monk. Offense - given what was just said about Defense, I’m a little surprised that Monks Offense is even with Rogue and Berserker. I’d have expected Berserker to have the highest, then Rogue, then Monk. The exact spread is not something I’ve ever considered, however. Parry/Block - discussed above. What is a Monk’s Block skill cap though? Riposte - A berserker isn’t going to care about getting hit, why would they even try? If anything has a 0, it should be this skill for berserkers. In practical terms, it isn’t, because they expect people to have to tank weak stuff sooner or later, and this skill helps at those times. Its not all about raiding. Triple Attack - I could see balancing this across all three classes. But, what’s the point? The sole purpose of this skill is DPS, and by this point in the game, devs are going to set DPS to whatever they want it to be, by adjusting skill attacks, combat abilities, and weapon ratios. You would not see any real gains (or losses) by equalizing this skill across the classes. So why make the effort?
The sad truth is that these differences in skill levels means almost nothing at all. It's almost irrelevant. Probably would need a 10 hour parse to see a .1% difference between triple attack, parry, defense, riposte etc.
Monks are martial artists, supposedly capable of turning an opponent’s strength against them. In game terms, up monk riposte, give them back the ability to riposte a riposte. Structure it so they actually do more damage when facing the mob. Because this has little use in raids, give them the ability to riposte some of the attacks a targeted opponent makes on those next to them. The ability to riposte some of the attacks made on a tank would make them much more popular in raids, as there is no longer any use for pulling during raids.
My "headcanon" on the matter says that zerks aren't riposting for their own well-being. Instead, they're executing a riposte as a side-effect of them deftly moving their opponent's weapon out of the way so they can smash a giant sledgehammer in the opponent's face.
None of those tweaks will measurably make DPS better, and rogues dont need a DPS upgrade. Outside a 60 second burn which doesnt exist on any raid event for NoS, they blow both monks and zerkers out of the water on the DPS parse. Rogues are the necros of the melee world, it takes alot of work for them not to be the top melee DPS on a raid. Monks and Zerkers are fairly well matched over a 15-20 minute event.
Most relevant is the innate mitigation tables of the classes. To my knowledge this is not represented numerically anywhere. This is where you see Rogues are squishier than you might expect while Monks tank surprisingly well at a given AC value. The other problem is how horribad damage tuning can be for NPC's. How many expansions have we seen where Armor Class is all but irrelevant for most classes against current content.
I've been wondering about those innate mitigation and damage tables. We haven't heard about or measured any increase in those values since level 100 (or earlier?). I measured Combat Stability AA 1% increase as netting 4 AC on my paladin at level 120 and that seems like a really low amount. I'm going to watch my stats on other characters as they level past 110 to see if the tables provide increases in AC or ATK. It's possible the tables (in code) haven't been updated in years and the only gains come from AA now.
All good suggestions, but tbh where rogues are at right now, leave us be. I dont want to give devs a reason start "piddeling" with us. My two rogues and their two mercs do everything I need just fine atm. If you want to add stuff fine, let me spend AA to get track for a day , make it a global add for any class nothing that requires you to go in in adjust class settings.
