EQ suffers from what every other MMO suffers from. Unnecessary complexity.

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Strawberry, Dec 19, 2022.

  1. Iven Antonius Bayle

    Or wasting dev time with hundreds of boring promo videos about every little nerd detail, which is going on for many years and then does end up as vaporware.
    Zeoni likes this.
  2. Brontus EQ Player Activist


    Different cultures have different strengths and weaknesses. All cultures are not the same. The problem of "over-engineering" is a well-known pitfall in product design and in UX design. I was exploring that idea with regard to video games with real life anecdotal examples from my own personal experience and how it relates to video games.

    Ability bloat and user interface clutter can be the result of many things. Culture can be one of them. Many engineers are have personality traits that might value more features over less features.

    As I have said in previous replies, the developers on EQ were inexperienced. They were learning as they went along. Also, the devs had no idea that EQ would last 23 years, so they didn't plan ahead, they just made EQ as good as it could be to get the expansions out the door. The concept of the user experience was not a thing back in 1996--1999 when EQ was in development.

    Another thing to consider is that many Japanese companies have their own unique corporate culture. From what you have said it seems that Square Enix does not believe in ability bloat and clutter. Thanks for sharing this.
  3. KushallaFV Playing EverQuest

    Good thing development didn’t stop on EQ 26 years ago. After EQ survived EQ2 and WoW being launched, it becomes an entirely different expectation. It’s a failure of management to not recognize the continued success.
    Wayylon, Zeoni and Rijacki like this.
  4. Brontus EQ Player Activist


    I agree with you. The EQ dev team back then were pioneers. Without them, there would be no World of Warcraft. Who knows if 3D virtual worlds would have become as big as they did once Blizzard took over the genre if it wasn't for Verant.

    I honestly don't think Enad Global 7 appreciates what they have in the EQ franchise, other than EQ is a fat cash cow that they milk for east profits. For too long, they've been min maxing since they purchased the franchise, putting the lowest amount of effort and resources for the maximum amount of profit.

    Serious studios have long-term development strategies and invest millions back into their studios and their staff to create future products. I think the only answer for this franchise is for them to develop a new version of EQ. There are enough unique things about the EQ universe and gameplay that a new EQ MMO would be viable and would attract old and new players.

    No matter what the future holds in store for the franchise, EQ really needs a user interface overhaul that would benefit EQ live and EQ TLP. I'm expecting big things from Darkpaw in 2023.
    Zeoni likes this.
  5. Tarvas Redwall of Coirnav, now Drinal

    I think you are overcomplicating the process of making in game audio triggers. It's a three step process, four if you want custom voices. People are expected to know their classes inside and out beyond the rough guides out there, but not how to make basic triggers. Interesting.
  6. Metanis Bad Company

    Many great points and ideas in this thread. Gosh, wouldn't it be wonderful if the players had some representative who could share information bidirectionally and cooperatively?

    I say that because it's obvious that players could make informed and appropriate suggestions and improvements if they were allowed to cross the moat and enter the kingdom.

    But it seems the players are the unwashed masses who must not be allowed to sully the franchise.
    Dre., Brontus and Zeoni like this.
  7. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    Playing multiple classes instead of a single class isn't a problem and could be considered a good thing. The problem with boxing has more to do with the fact that EQ was never designed to solo like other games. If it was possible for players to solo up to current content there would be a smaller demand for boxing.
    Skuz likes this.
  8. Brontus EQ Player Activist


    This is the best post I've seen in a long time. You summed it up very nicely. Thank you.

    Loyal EQ players with experience and insight who take the time to post on these forums are essentially being ignored by Darkpaw. Nobody knows EQ better than the players, not the devs, not the suits in management. Why? Because we play EQ every day, they don't.

    This is almost 2023 not 1999. Times have changed. It is foolish to ignore the combined crowd sourced wisdom from experienced players but they do. I think it's part of the studio culture. There are some great devs here that truly care, but there are some that seem indifferent, detached, and insular. I may be wrong, but believe that insularity has permeated the studio culture at Daybreak.

    Where's that player council that they promised?

    I often scratch my head and try to figure out why there is such a vast chasm between EQ players and devs. I think you nailed it. Whether it's ego, insecurity, or the imposter syndrome, they are afraid of letting the great unwashed masses who may be smarter and more talented than them, into their hallowed kingdom. Devs need to remember that once a upon a time, they too were just mere players.

    Rarely do the devs ask our opinions. When players are not consulted, an unhealthy "us versus them" dynamic starts to take hold. A good relationship is one where both parties respect each other and openly communicate with each other. On these forums, it's basically the players doing all the communicating. From where I stand, that's a dysfunctional relationship. But as you aptly noted, both parties are not equals.

    What I think is missing from Darkpaw, is a sense of goodwill and beneficence towards the players that pay their salaries. A MMO studio should be trying to please it's customers with acts of goodwill such as quality of life improvements. I've never seen the devs reach out to players and post in the class forums. I've never seen them ask:

    How can we make your class better?

    A spirit of generosity from the devs, would make players feel included and welcomed, instead of feeling excluded and ignored.

    At least one month a year, devs should stop working on the next expansion and focus on what the players want instead of what the devs want.

    Every year, each class should get one improvement or embellishment that players have been clamoring for. Pay it forward. Be open-minded. Be kind. Be magnanimous. Be friendly. Show some occasional charity and gratitude to the players. Is that too much to ask?

    All we can do as players is make the very best arguments to help make EQ a better experience for those who play it. Truth is truth no matter if a developers says it or a player says it.

    Players who post on the forums in a spirt of good faith trying to make EQ better, take a lot of slings and arrows for their trouble. Even though what we contribute often falls on deaf ears, we do it because we still care about this crazy thing called EverQuest. I hope it's not too much to ask that Darkpaw cares as much the players care.
    Zeoni likes this.
  9. Zeoni Journeyman

    Wish you the best of Luck.
  10. Heimdall Elder

    Warhammer Online was not a great game. It was extremely shallow - tradeskilling could hardly be called such, much of the game play was queueing for a First Person Shooter arena type event.
  11. Iven Antonius Bayle

    Boxing does speed up the leveling process, does make it much less risky and much more content is accessible and doable. It does also grant the player more control about its play time, loot and play style. Many missions, adventures and expeditions do require a second box, some raid instances even more. Leveling up molo could be done with all classes, even with the wizard, but it is much slower and often less fun. Many people do like boxing for many reasons.

    Team Darkpaw should start to make PC grouping more interesting and moloing (mercs) less rewarding. Of course that would also benefit boxers that do not make much use of mercs:
    • Unlock instanced expeditions, adventures, missions and raid zones to single players ! Absolutely no need to lock them behind a PC/merc count barrier as it is much harder for solo/molo.
    • More duplicated item drops (from named mobs) while ignoring mercs.
    • Increased coin and cash drops for PCs while ignoring mercs.
    • Increased drop rate for zone-wide rare items while ignoring mercs.
    • As an experiment each expansion could have one PC group friendly T2 non-raid zone with many item drops including a coin loot bonus where mercs are disabled. Mercs were not meant to replace PCs but actually they do right that.


    Hail, an Unwashed Mass! Da oogres from da caves are greeting ya!

    [IMG]
    Metanis likes this.
  12. Act of Valor The Newest Member

    Warhammer Online did something right - public quests. Those were a neat idea. That would be a very neat experiment for Everquest.
  13. Waring_McMarrin Augur


    Yes, boxing does that but it would also be unneeded if every class could solo up to max level/aa. There are other games that let a player solo, group, or raid giving them more freedom to choose their playstyle without having to play multiple characters at once.

    The point being that not being tied to a single character/class isn't a bad thing and boxing is more common because people can't do things solo.
    Zunnoab and KushallaFV like this.
  14. KushallaFV Playing EverQuest

    You bring up good points and highlight the need for alternative routes of character progression through non-combat. Overseer is nice, but they could do more like some daily tradeskill requisitions as an alternative.
  15. Notinterested Augur

    This is a discussion forum not your personal suggestion box. What you will get here is a discussion with the community and thats it, like it or not.

    You want a discussion on it i would go to reddit. Besides the class forums the forums here are mostly a waste of space.

    Great info to be found in the class forums but if you want a good faith discussion you are wasting your time here.
  16. Brontus EQ Player Activist

    I'm not sure why you feel the need to be a gatekeeper and use uncharitable language in response to my post. I'd be happy to have a civil discussion about any of the issues that I brought up in previous replies.

    You are claiming that these forums are not for personal suggestions. I disagree. Feedback, critique, and suggestions from players to developers are indeed the lifeblood of these forums. If suggestions were prohibited then these forums would serve no purpose and the quality of EverQuest would suffer as developers would lose access to valuable player feedback.

    Press the "F" key in-game and this is what comes up:

    [IMG]

    When I read this, I take Darkpaw on their word and come to the forums to share my suggestions.

    The official forum guidelines seem to suggest your views on the purpose of forums are incorrect:

    "The purpose of these Forums and other Official Daybreak Games-maintained communication channels is to create a positive and constructive atmosphere for discussion about games at Daybreak Games and topics meaningful to our communities. While we may at times disagree with one another, it is important to maintain an atmosphere of civility and respect so that all voices may be heard."

    Every suggestion starts off as a personal suggestion. Via the process of discussion, some suggestions can gain consensus among other players, some do not. If personal suggestions were not allowed, then consensus could never be established on anything. That said, all suggestions have some form of merit. The forum guidelines clearly state the same sentiment: "that all voices may be heard.'

    Thanks for the advice but I choose to stay here.

    Why is that? I'd like to hear your take on why they are mostly a waste of space. If they are waste of space let's change that and strive to make them useful for both players and developers.
    Joules_Bianchi and Dre. like this.
  17. Dre. Altoholic

    Uh, you can setup a controller to work with EQ in about 5 minutes.
  18. Zeoni Journeyman

    I mean out of the box it just works type stuff.
  19. Dre. Altoholic

    I'd wager someone has already cooked up a way to control the cursor via stick, add OSK support and concievably you'd have most game functionality, albeit very slow.

    Controller-friendly UI for inventory, crafting, quests, trading, spells, and untold dozens of other things - now that's the real ask.
  20. Agarwaen New Member

    Agree with many views here. The game has so many layers, many of them just reiterations. Much of that should be condensed. For my twenty two cents the Devs should strive for less auto mash and focus more on meaningful decisions in combat with clearer cues while not being spoon fed. Use that special ability now or save it? This was the key difference of EQ1 from wow etc. Leave whackamole to others. But overtime expansions and pressure to match competitors devolve that unique proposition. I also think its time for new character graphics that are a more contemporary in detail while respecting the original style cues. One temptation I think they need to avoid is custom skins though. A part of the game is choosing how you look to others.
    Skuz, Dre., Zeoni and 2 others like this.