Why aren't TLP's double loot after The Buried Sea?

"Go play on Mischief" is not a solution. People have spent years invested into their characters at this point. They are not able to give that up so easily. More importantly than that are the friendships within their server community. That is often the reason people will stick it through. That's not to say we can't strive to make the loot situation better.

Additionally, Mischief is not for everyone. Personally, I love that they get bonus loot and I could maybe get used to the randomized loot, but I don't think I would enjoy the free trade aspect.

1. If a person quits because they don't acquire anything in an era they were just looking for an excuse to leave. That's complete nonsense to leave. You're playing an accelerated release server, it should be an unwritten rule knowing you're mostly likely not going to get everything. It should be fully expected.

2. You don't need full BIS every expansion. Not a single class in the game does. The entitlement is seeping through people's pores if they think so. Outside of mods/focus effects, everything is fluff.

3. The people claiming they don't have enough time to gear in expansions are making nothing but uninformed claims. Only a handful of guilds beat SOF before there was left 3 months left in it. That means a vast majority of the live population had equal to or less than the same amount of time a TLP guild is going to get to farm it. A majority of guilds on a TLP raiding in SOF will beat it within 1-2 weeks. That leaves 10-11 weeks to farm it. Only 10 guilds SERVERWIDE had more than 10-11 weeks to farm Crystallos in era. How can anyone claim TLPs don't have enough time to farm the content when knowing that a majority of the playbase on live had the same time?

Reducing value of loot is not a realistic solution in my opinion. I have played two TLPs now over the course of 3 years. I have experience and suffered the disappointment of the item I want never dropping or having to compete for the single one that did. I have also played on the live servers for years where the norm has been tradeskill BiS items made via a guaranteed tradeskill item drop per chest, increasing throughout the expansion. As well, in later expansions, after killing an event, or a tier of raids, the loot from that event/tier becomes available on a raid vendor for currency. It is convenient but honestly it ruins the allure of loot. Getting the big upgrades or the nice items is less thrilling, less fulfilling. Changing all TLPs to be loot bonanzas isn't what some people want.

The reduced time spent in each expansion from 12 months to 3-ish is made-up tenfold by player knowledge and experience, published strategies, instanced raiding, DPS parsing (to learn how to push more), etc., etc. There is more loot from each expansion on a TLP than there ever was in the course of 12 months when the content was live.

Last post from me on this because the idea is just absurd when you look at the actual facts.

Lets use Crystallos from SoF. As it stands, you get 20 visible armor drops and 21 other loot drops per clear of this zone. The expansion lasts 12 weeks. Lets say it takes you 2 weeks to get your raid flagged and in and clear so you only get 10 clears in era. That is currently 200 armor items and 210 other pieces of gear, for a total of 410 drops. A raid max size is 54 people. Thats 7-8 item upgrades per person without any splitting, and any super rush to flag immediately, from this zone alone. Counting the charm slot you have 21 item slots to equip. Every single person getting at least a third of their gear upgraded from one raid zone is plenty. Doubling that would leave no reason to do the other raid zones like meldraths mansion which has a plethora of good gear in it as well.

In fact, all doubling the loot drops as a permanent feature would do is ensure most gear rots in era after a handful of clears as the classes that can use it would already have it. Most of the events do not have big loot tables. Nobody needs to see 20 pet focus items only useable by mages, necros, and beastlords.

Adding more backflags or options to backflag is not a bad idea at all. There were a couple times for whatever reason that we had a successful raid, ready to hit the next tier only to have 10 people not show the next time and you can't fill with unflagged boxes. Thinking stuff like first creation/audience with Brell especially. Drop them on the boss and maybe have those unflagged boxes sitting in the GH be able to zone in as long as they were in the raid. Nothing crazy, but 3-4 would alleviate some pain.

Man... if i've ever seen the pot calling the kettle black... you literally server transfered to a box server because you kept getting suspended over and over for playing an entire party on a truebox server. Then continued to whine and try to justify how you should be able to box an entire party on said truebox server.

And no, you quit numerous times through the expansions (primarily in the 70 era). I only quit during LDON for it's duration. I'm surprised you tried to go with these argument points tbh.

I was looking for some constructive feedback from people with actual perspectives on how loot goes from SOF all the way to live with those that have ran with a server(s) for that long. Not you on here crying about how you would quit if it were double loot. lmao

I mean... do you even raid anymore on that dead box server? and if not why would you even be on here communicating in reference to expansions that don't even pertain to you.

If loot isn't to be increased, then at least lower the lockout timers on these servers. Give us the opportunity to get more loot. If you are cool with current drop rate, then fine, just stick with doing content once every 5+ days. If you want more, the opportunity would be there. Not the best solution, but the second best.

Response from the powers at be? Anyone?

Those numbers you are assuming equal distribution of each visible. There have been a few instances In TSS you will get a run of the same slot like multiple bracers or helms. As for TBS if you don't split you only have enough Phosphene to fully gear 18 members. That may be around half your raid. It's either that or you spread 1 or 2 pieces through your raid.

Also, what is wrong being almost fully bis by expansions end? Especially when these expansions going forward start having bigger jumps between. So, you kind of need this gear to survive the hits and make dps checks. Also, people that have 100 RA and make every raid would hope to be mostly fully geared. I get maybe 50RA not being fully geared if they aren't showing up.

If this concept wasn't popular you wouldn't see it in things like WoW where their 10m & 20m raids get the same if not more loot than our raids with 30+ people in it. SWTOR also provided similar amount of raid gear to WoWs numbers. If I had at least 90RA I was able to get most of the items I wanted from that expansion, minus 1 or 2 hotly contested items if they went long runs of not dropping.

Maximizing your character is fun. Having slots from multiple expansions back because of time/RNG is frustrating. Even if you are fully geared right near the end of an expansion you can play another class and enjoy gearing them as well. Those are the people who enjoy the game enough that they'd play another character. You yourself play 4+ characters. I assume you'd want to gear them up as well? People tend to quit when they get burned out or the content is stale/repetitive. Not because they are getting geared. They quit because they feel they need to be at 100% of raids, because loot is so scarce that if they miss even 1 raid they can miss the only chance for an item they want to drop. They quit because the raids are repetitive and not fun and nothing to do outside of raids.
I doubt increasing loot for the amount of people in raids is a bad thing especially when a michsief & Vaniki type servers don't seem to complain about their loot or other MMOs who have a better loot to raid number ratio.

shhh.... stop trying to change their nostalgia. People run classic - velious nonstop after all lmao. But yes, just about every single mmo out there that is successful offers an abundance of loot to people. The lack of loot is always hated more than the abundance of loot, plain and simple. It's a fact, not an assumption. Especially on servers that are in expansions for 2-3 months.

One guy on this thread already said that he went with the method of replacing visuals one expansion, then rotating to weapon and accessories the next expansion. That leaves you with half your gear out of date at the end of every expansion. Leaving you to an exponential amount of missing ac, hp, mana, endurance, and damage. Is it not needed for the next expansion? no? Cool, but what is the harm is allowing people to actually fully gear each and every expansion if that is actually the method people have to do? Just because ishbu over here would quit because he is able to get fully geared (super weird btw)?

If there is no issue gearing up in the future okay, but literally not being able to max a character out or even get close to maxing a character out without pooling currency doesn't make sense. You can already fully gear in every single previous expansion, just not SoF and beyond. I don't see what the issue is here and why people would complain that you can. lmao

This response from you is a good example of why your original post here was just nonsensical hyperbole. You literally are inaccurate at best in your accounts of things, and even resort to bold faced lies to try and make a point. Problem is, a point founded on falsehoods is no point at all.

Let me break these down to help you out.

You say I was boxing an entire party on a truebox server. Well thats not accurate, Ive never played an entire party on any server. Also, there is nothing against people doing that if they wished on a mere truebox server. You might want to go look up what truebox means exactly. What you meant was I boxed more than 2 characters, without breaking truebox, on Aradune, a server that selectively enforces when and who it allows to do that. It would be in your best interest to not ask for specific examples of what boxing a "full party" or "selective enforcement" looks like, as you rely on it heavily to get your precious raid pixels.

You say I quit numerous times, primarily in the 70s era huh? Thats just a straight up lie. Go on, explain how you thought otherwise while you often were nowhere to be found and I was a 100% raider.

And for your third paragraph, you do realize Rizlona is a higher population server than Aradune right? Its 2022, its far past time to realize because you cleared current raid content, you arent special, most guilds that are still going do that.

Wow amazing, you typed 3 paragraphs in response and were factually off to flat out wrong in every single one of them, and still hit submit. Astounding. This is all symptomatic of the larger issue. You started this thread saying oh we cant get enough loot to gear up in expansions starting with SoF. I literally posted factual data about number of drops and you changed your tune to, well why shouldnt everyone have full BiS in era? See the problem here? You arent truthful in what you do and say. Gearing up isnt an issue, you dont need full BiS, you just want to have every item you want, but you also want it right away in era without having to put in time to obtain it really. You are allowed to go back and clear the raid if there is something you just had to have that you didnt get drop due to extremely bad RNG or bad DKP management on your part, but no, you should get it all in era, its not necessary for progression, it doesnt mean you dont have plenty of other gear options, you want the absolute best in every slot and you want it now. That wouldnt be fun for many people, thus the replies from those of us who disagree with the idea of doubling loot.

We dont need more loot, there is enough that drops already. RNG will be RNG. Thats EQ Baby

I am confused with a big portion of this post. Are you being pedantic and arguing semantics about how many characters you overboxed on Aradune and Truebox/Two-Box Limit? Aradune is two-box limit and you definitely passed that limit by double if not triple. So, I guess Lugolai was technically wrong you may have boxed 5 instead of the full 6 characters. You also sound like one of those people who is more upset that you were caught than you were breaking the servers stated ruleset because, you personally didn't agree with them. Do you also argue with cops when you get pulled over for speeding because they got you and not the car ahead that was also speeding? Do you complain that jay-walking is a stupid rule and you shouldn't have to follow it because you don't believe in the rule and mad when you got caught, but witnessed someone else also jay-walk and not get in trouble?

What makes you think Rizlona is a higher population server than Aradune? What is your bar of measurement? That there are more characters online when people can box 20 characters a piece as long as they have "multiple computers"? Sure I guess then maybe Rizlona may have a larger population than our server that allows only 2 characters per person. If that is not your metric for that statement do you have info not privy to the rest of us? Because they don't state anywhere the current population of a server that I know of.

Not sure how increasing loot a bit so that some raiders who play 100% of the time at least have an opportunity to full gear minus maybe an item or 2 due to RNG vs literally having to chose between gearing visibles one expansion and everything else another. There have been items that we have gone 5 months with splits and either seen none or only 1 of that item. So much fun when multiple items drop like that and you are wearing pieces 2+ eras out of date. Like I mentioned in my post, WoW literally drops at least the same amount of gear this bonus provided and even has a limit of 10man and 20man raids. They don't seem to have a ton of people complaining they are getting too much loot. You just come across as this meme:

Okay let's take this step by step:

So, were you just boxing 5 then? Or what is your defense of "full party"? I'm assuming because you sometimes left an open slot you then justified it by not breaking any rules and anything that happened to you was clearly you just being a victim. Because your crying about it nonstop definitely made it seem that way. Aradune is a server that doesn't allow 2 clients on the same computer, and only allows 2 accounts per person on at the same time. Anything more than that is against the server rules, which is why you were suspended numerous times.

You missed 770 ticks. Your 100% raider is already debunked. Unless you are trying to claim those 770 ticks were all missed when you were suspended from your super unfair vacations you were forced to have while not "true boxing".

That's actually the 4th paragraph you are trying to reference about population. And sorry but box servers are just never more popular. Populated? sure it's possible, since people can run 20+ accounts.

That last paragraph is a doozy, full of so much nonsense that makes no sense whatsoever. As if you were having an argument in your head about things you thought I said. I'm still so lost on the "not truthful on what you do" portion. Because nowhere in this thread did I say I did something I didn't do. Never said you need full BIS, and never claimed I wanted full BIS a week into the expansion, nor did i claim I didn't want to work for anything. But they don't give people enough time to work for it is the obvious issue. And going back to previous expansions STARTING IN SOF AND BEYOND (as constantly stated and reminded because you constantly lose this idea) is 100% pointless except for maybe a clicky like an illusion. The gear upgrades are so drastic that it's pointless. Other gear options being............? Taking items from classes that something is more suited for because I can get it for cheaper? Getting group gear that is 30%+ worse than the raid gear? And you keep mentioning "now" that honestly makes no sense. I'm just looking for the option to gear out more than half of my slots per expansion. It doesn't matter if it's needed for the next expansion, it's literally what people shoot for in MMO's. Making their character stronger. Again, prior to SOF you are able to fully gear each and every expansion. you might miss 1 - 2 slots, but that isn't a big deal. You aren't missing 7 slots. And those upgrades are also very minor (30-50 hp). Now going into SOF AND BEYOND (caps for dramatic effect since you lose track of what expansions we are discussing) the upgrades are 50%+ hp and it just increases further and further as the expansions go on.

I had to cut off that last paragraph. Your paragraph I was referencing was so full of stupidity it took a lot to reply to. BUT IM NOT DONE. You also reference that it wouldn't be fun for many people. in the regards of SOF AND BEYOND (more caps so you once again understand what expansion we are referencing) What wouldnt be fun? Being able to actually get all the gear you want in every expansion? (obviously if you fill 7 slots in 3 months, hopefully double loot you'd be able to fill 14 slots in the same amount of time) What would make this not fun? the ability to be stronger then other people that cleared the content with only half the items you were able to get? You'd still be raiding the content for just as long, except you'd be able to get full loot (or potentially full loot) each expansion. Because again, you easily replace every single item every single expansion. So please enlighten those of us confused how it is more fun (because if it wouldn't be fun with double loot and more items it would have to be more fun with less items right?) to go into content with only half of your items up to date for the next expansion.

Lol Lugolai, you are bordering on mental deficiency so why dont you just do yourself a favor and ask your guild leaders if I quit since you evidentaly dont even know how to count ticks correctly

Your entire post reads like a kid having a tantrum because you got caught in several lies. My god, you cant even count to 4, you thought it was 6 and then after thinking about it though it was 5. Most children can count to 4, its not hard.

We casually ignoring Last Bloods, Serpent's Seals, and Sunshard Seals which are far better than nearly every equivalent set slot for many classes? The very same items that have now been dropping for the better part of a year? Y'all haven't acquired enough of those to head into SOF with?

Gear bloat is a seriously understated issue. It degrades the excitement of raiding, it causes too much power creep, it causes boredom, etc. This is an accelerated server. It should be accepted that not everyone will acquire BIS. A TLP should somewhat mirror what Live player experienced, but only accelerated pace. That's the literal intent of a TLP. Not a gear smorgasbord.

A vast majority of live players did not acquire even close to all BIS in any era in the game until the more recent loot changes and currency bloat. It shouldn't even be debated knowing this.

To put it in Solteris perspective. Only SEVEN guilds in the entire game beat Solteris in Era. More guilds on Aradune beat Solteris the first one-two weeks than that. Literally no guild on live ever split content. There are a few splitting content. There is more Solteris loot on Aradune in just a few weeks of the content than there was ever on any live server for the entirety of the 6 months. There is possibly more Solteris loot on Aradune alone than there was in the entire game during 2007. Now please, tell me again why TLPs need more loot? Because entitlement? That's basically what it comes down to? There's no reason to need full BIS other than wanting to have it all.

Welcome to Everquest 2007 where not everyone got everything. Welcome to a standard TLP which recreates this experience. You don't like it? Play on Live or another more casual-friendly TLP ruleset and you'll have unlimited days in Solteris or more loot. Stop trying to change the experience for everyone. The TLPs are doing exactly what they were designed to do.

Part of the excitement of raiding is the RNG factor. Drastically increasing total loot takes away this excitement. I always enjoyed having the luck of the RNG Gods as well as being a victim to it. It's a major aspect of raiding that is absolutely gone from Live servers and I abhor it. Along with some other factors, it has driven me to near retirement on Live. I would rather not get loot bloat here. It ruins raiding for me as it becomes nothing more than a glorified participation trophy. You can show up, half dead, get your all your loot, repeat ad nauseum each expansion. No excitement, no thrill, no dopamine rush because you know no matter what you'll be fully BIS and have zero reason to weigh the pros and cons of gear, plan it out, etc.

Not sure why your post is so binary. I'm not saying ~Everyone~ is decked out in full bis every expansion. Nor am I advocating for "welfare epics" I don't want personal loot or extra raid currency. Just double the potential loot drops from just raids. Even with 2 raids with this double loot there have been multiple items that have never dropped. Doubling loot would at least have a greater chance of seeing these items and gearing the numbers that show up to raids, which is more that many other MMOs, yet we get less loot than those games.

Many of these posts assume that those that want double loot for these expansions after 70, and before personal raid currency want every member fully geared in bis. No, I don't think casual raiders that attend maybe 1 or 2 raids a week should be able to fully geared, because then as you say it devalues loot. But those that are there every single raid should at least have a chance to upgrade their gear. However, due to many encounters only dropping 2 items, and raids averaging around 30 members the potential to even upgrade 1/2 your slots with only 8 to 12 clears an expansion is low. Doubling loot at least allows the most dedicated raid members chances at items they are looking for. Again, not advocating to wellfare and personal loot. You still need RNG for those items to drop, and the dkp to earn it that other members would be competing against.

This notion of fully gearing your character during an expansion being bad and causing people to quit is strange. Likely these people's dedication to the game was already wavering and not enjoying the content enough that they were looking for an excuse to quit. Sure, fully gearing 3-4 weeks into an expansion would cause some issues, but by 12 weeks and the close of an expansion I should have the chance to replace most of my outdated gear.
What I do see cause people to quit is burnout. They feel they have to attend more than they want because loot is so low/rare that if they even miss 1 raid they can lose out on the items they desire. I see people quit not because of getting too much loot, but because the actual content of the expansion is tedious & repetitive/bored.
People that enjoy the game will continue to play the expansion even if they don't have any gear they need. They may even play another character and raid with them and try to gear them as well. Of all the reasons to quit I don't see having the ability to gear your character being high on the list.

Ok Timeout:

• Leave WoW out of it, most raiders have to gear two specs so really they need the extra loot per toon.
• I agree maybe better/easier backflagging /shrug
• I'm excited so many people who have clearly never played past their sweet 2.0 are seeing the game past getting their sweet 2.0
• Truebox is lame, the comparison is getting mad about a citation for smoking a joint 5 years ago when you know its legal and growing and wtf coppah! Dumb rules should challenged

Time in : )

Man... these conversations in your head are getting unreal and it's completely opposite of what you did or said. Nowhere did my 3rd paragraph in anything I've said talk about population, which again, you were referencing. But I helped you out and let you know it was a 4th paragraph that referenced anything about rizlona. Also, discord is full of you whining and crying and trying to justify your suspensions from the server due to playing to many characters at the same time. So with multiple suspensions you somehow still had 100% ra? okay bud. Another thing, I can literally see your ticks still btw. So the stupidity sure is unreal on your part.

The biggest issue you have on here which must account for some mental deficiency is you constantly accuse people of saying things they didn't say. You talk about how I thought it was 6, then 5, etc. You are literally just making up crap to try to fuel a lack of argument you have. Doesn't surprise me after you tried to interpret server rules that best fit what you wanted to do. And when suspended numerous times, still decided you were in the right. lmao

In the interest of keeping this thread unlocked, let's stick to constructive discussions about loot amounts and gearing within limited timeframes on a TLP, and not about boxing or personal disputes.

Please and thanks <3

Agreed! Let's hope people can actually bring constructive observations to this thread instead of fill it with drivel.

As for TLP's supposed to reflect what it was like on live, there were already game changing updates, and this is no longer a thing. Should we then also sit in each era for a year like they did on live? Check out the Flagging process changes for PoP and OOW. They were changed immensely when it comes to speed of flagging. So even taking a look into that would be a huge QoL change for SoF and beyond.

"SoF and Beyond" is misleading, there are examples of expansions past SoF where loot rains from the sky (UF for example) and also examples where you will go back an expansion to continue raiding either due to staggered tier unlocks (TDS, TBM, EoK, RoS, TBL..) or because to create the visibles "in era" you require drops from previous era (EoK/RoS). Not to mention raid currency starts in VoA, so you really only have SoF, SoD and HoT that don't either have currency to help gear along or already double loot. SoD has hard modes which are just separate lockouts for the same events with smaller caps so you can double up your loot that way.