Heroics for tanks, Agility, Stamina, Or Dexterity?

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Thren, May 22, 2022.

  1. Tucoh Augur

    Only nerds participate in parsing and calculating damage. This is the tank forum, if you want to tank or hit better, just ooga booga harder.
    Quatr, Evast, Flatchy and 1 other person like this.
  2. Vumad Cape Wearer

    These are taken from Zam, supplemented by raid loot.

    For all augs the Format I am using is
    AGI - DEX - STA

    ToL-T3 LORE
    100 - 47 - 31 = 178 = 59.33
    47 - 100 - 31 = 178 = 59.33
    47 - 31 - 100 = 178 = 59.33
    63 - 63 - 63 = 189 = 63

    ToL-T2 LORE
    98 - 46 - 30 = 174 = 58
    46 - 98 - 30 = 174 = 58
    46 - 30 - 98 = 174 = 58 (ZAM lists this at 95 STA but raid loot lists it at 98)
    59 - 59 - 59 = 177 = 59

    ToL-T1
    93 - 43 - 28 = 164 = 54.66
    43 - 93 - 28 = 164 = 54.66
    43 - 28 - 93 = 164 = 54.66 (ZAM lists this at 28 AGI but raid loot lists it at 43)
    54 - 54 - 54 = 162 = 54

    CoV-T3 LORE
    90 – 42 – 28 = 160 = 53.33
    42 – 90 – 28 = 160 = 53.33
    42 – 28 – 90 = 160 = 53.33
    57 – 57 – 57 = 171 = 57

    CoV – T2 LORE
    85 – 40 – 26 = 151 = 50.33
    40 – 85 – 26 = 151 = 50.33
    40 – 26 – 85 = 151 = 50.33
    52 – 52 – 52 = 156 = 52

    CoV – T1
    80 – 37 – 25 = 142 = 47.33
    37 – 80 – 25 = 142 = 47.33
    37 – 25 – 80 = 142 = 47.33
    47 – 47 – 47 = 141 = 47


    ToV T3 LORE
    77 - 36 - 24 = 137 = 45.66
    36 - 77 - 24 = 137 = 45.66
    36 - 24 - 77 = 137 = 45.66
    35 - 35 - 35 = 105 = 35

    ToV T2 LORE
    75 - 35 - 23 = 133 = 44.33
    35 - 75 - 23 = 133 = 44.33
    35 - 23 - 75 = 133 = 44.33
    34 - 34 - 34 = 102 = 34

    ToV T1
    70 - 33 - 22 = 125 = 41.66
    33 - 70 - 22 = 125 = 41.66
    33 - 22 - 70 = 125 = 41.66
    32 - 32 - 32 = 96 = 32

    So far everything in this thread has focused on the value of a single stat. I think the fact that there is so much debate and opinion on this makes it pretty clear that there is no definitive right or wrong answer.

    So far these are the opinions I have concluded from reading about and talking to people on the Tank Type 5 augs, Fanra (link at bottom, and other sources.

    AGI is AC and AC is the most valuable stat to a tank.
    STA is HP, and although AC is more important to tanking, the extra HP is better because of Spell damage and all the healing available.
    DEX is DPS, and for SHD especially, DEX is lifetap procs. The extra DPS is more valuable than marginal gains in AC or HP, and for SHD, DPS is healing.

    After looking at the augs however, I decided that right or wrong, I am going to focus on maxing overall stats.

    The best Type 5 Augs are…
    ToL T3 HARMONY aug with an AVG stat of 63
    ----Luclinite Ensanguined Harmony
    ToL T3 AGI, DEX or STA augs with an AVG stat of 59.3
    ----Luclinite Ensanguined Celerity
    ----Luclinite Ensanguined Proficiency
    ----Luclinite Ensanguined Resilience
    TOL T2 HARMONY with a AVG stat of 59
    ----Mysterious Medicine Vessel
    ToL T2 AGI, DEX and STA with an AVG stat of 58
    ----Nimble Crystalline Shard
    ----Norrathian Stone of Sure Flight
    ----Servant's Sustenance
    CoV T3 HARMONY with an AVG stat of 57
    ----Velium Threaded Harmony

    Note that since T1 augs are 164 combined stats, and assuming that you are going to pick your favorite stat in the T3 and T2 augs anyway, that leaves 7 augs in debate, going the max route = 25 + 14 + 14 + 13 + 10 + 10 + 9 = 95 extra heroic stats (in the 3 primary tank stats) by sticking with the T3/2 augs that are not your chosen primary stat.

    This covers 9 aug slots with LORE augs, leaving 11 slots to fill.

    The rest of the augs are not lore so pick the stat you prefer to focus on. There’s so much debate on the 3 stats, so I am going to say it’s a personal decision, though, STA might be the worst of the 3 choices in ToL, more on that later.*

    ToL T1 AGI, DEX or STA with an AVG stat of 54.66
    ----Shadowed Stone of Showers
    93 – 43 – 28
    ----Shadowed Stone of Waves
    43 – 93 – 28
    ----Shadowed Stone of Storms
    43 – 28 – 93
    ToL T1 HARMONY with an AVG stat of 54
    ----Shadowed Stone of Tranquility
    54 – 54 – 54

    Looking at only this, the HARMONY aug seems like the wrong choice. If you want to balance, get even amounts of each, 4 AGI, 4 DEX and 3 STA and you will get an additional +2 overall AGI, DEX, STA for each aug you choose to not take as the HARMONY version, so over the 11 augs, that’s 22 more AGI, DEX, STA than if you went the HARMONY option.

    However, we can take a broader look at the augs using all 5 stats.
    AGI – DEX – STA – STR – INT

    ToL T1 AGI, DEX or STA, the AVG stat drops from 54.66 to 48.8
    ----Shadowed Stone of Showers
    93 – 43 – 28 – 43 – 37 = 244 = 48.8 (51.75 without INT)
    ----Shadowed Stone of Waves
    43 – 93 – 28 – 43 – 37 = 244 = 48.8 (51.75 without INT)
    ----Shadowed Stone of Storms
    43 – 28 – 93 – 28 – 43 = 244 = 48.8 (48 without INT)
    However, the ToL T1 HARMONY keeps an AVG stat of 54
    ----Shadowed Stone of Tranquility
    54 – 54 – 54 – 54 – 54 = 270 = 54

    This means that by gaining 2 extra AGI, DEX or STA by going unbalanced, you are giving up 26 total stats when taking into consideration the STR and the INT. To Quantify that, if you do 4 AGI, 4 DEX and 3 STA to balance, you gain 22 AGI/DEX/STA but give up 44+44+45= 133 STR compared to using 11 HARMONY augs. Don’t be confused here. I’m not saying anyone should balance over picking a stat. I’m simply pointing out that, if you choose to balance, do so with the HARMONY aug, not a mix of AGI, DEX and STA augs. This was not the case in ToV and CoV where the HARMONY aug did not have such high AGI, DEX and STA as they do in ToL.

    *Lastly, I think STR is probably a more valuable stat to a knight than INT, and since the AGI and DEX augs have 43 STR but the STA aug only has 28 STR, if choosing to go the unbalanced route, the AGI aug is going to be a better overall choice than the STA aug. The STA focused will have 165 less STR than the AGI focused.

    So, this narrows down the Options to AGI focused, DEX focused or HARMONY focused. Since STA gives up 15 STR on every aug as compared to AGI or DEX.

    To summarize all of the above…
    All melee classes should use (note: The STA augs do have low STR)
    ----Luclinite Ensanguined Harmony
    ----Luclinite Ensanguined Celerity
    ----Luclinite Ensanguined Proficiency
    ----Luclinite Ensanguined Resilience
    ----Mysterious Medicine Vessel
    ----Nimble Crystalline Shard
    ----Norrathian Stone of Sure Flight
    ----Servant's Sustenance
    ----Velium Threaded Harmony

    Then select from the following 3 options.
    ----Shadowed Stone of Showers AGI focused for Defensive tanks
    ----Shadowed Stone of Waves DEX Focused for Offensive tanks and Melee
    ----Shadowed Stone of Tranquility HARMONY Focused for Max Stat tanks (probably reserved for knights, maybe some hybrids)



    EDIT: See next post about correction to STA.
    STA should probably be reserved for casters.
    ----Shadowed Stone of Storms

    And finally, the CoV T3 AGI, DEX and STA augs are an AVG of 53.33 each. Meaning you should replace all your CoV T1 and T2 augs before replacing your last 3 CoV focused augs.

    For other classes reading, going pure DEX for melee and pure STA for casters does make sense, but there are a few augs in there that should be strongly considered, such as the T3 AGI and STA augs for Melee. It does give up a significant amount of DEX for 14 more total stats, but a dead DPS does no DPS, for certain classes like BRD, that is probably a trade worth making.

    Disclaimer: As I mentioned before, I have no experience as a melee or a tank. I play all casters with very limited experience as RNG and BRD. Not enough to have any meaningful experience. I recently leveled and began playing a SHD which is how I ended up in these topics.

    Note: I accidentally did ToV instead of CoV when I started. Since i had already did the work of writing them down, I left them.

    Fanra Link: https://everquest.fanra.info/wiki/Tips_and_Guides#:~:text=Heroic Strength: Increases endurance pool,class while using a shield.
    Zam ToL Augs: https://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/eq:Terror_of_Luclin_Augments
    Zam CoV Augs: https://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/eq:Claws_of_Veeshan_Augments
    Zam ToV Augs: https://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/eq:Torment_of_Velious_Augments
    https://www.raidloot.com/items
    Metanis likes this.
  3. Vumad Cape Wearer

    I do need to correct myself about the STA aug. I said...

    Each of the augs has a high, medium and low stat. 93, 43 and 28. The AGI aug has the low stat in STA with a middle stat in DEX and STR, but the STA aug has the low stat in DEX and STR with the middle stat in AGI.

    So... I need to amend myself here, and this is using the assumption that AGI and STA are arguably both similar options.

    Max Defense would actually be STA which has the middle stat in AGI.
    Balanced would be HARMONY or AGI which has the middle stat in DEX and STR.
    Offensive would be DEX which has the middle stat in STR and AGI.
  4. Skrab East Cabilis #1 Realtor

    Your SK will appreciate having HDEX more than anything else.

    I don’t see the relevance of average stat values.
  5. kizant Augur

    Maybe SKs should consider HINT since they're 1/2 necro? Then they could afford to cast more lifetaps!
    Tucoh and Metanis like this.
  6. Spacemonkey555 Augur

    SK mana is for casting hate spells, you philistine. THAT is why we should go HINT. More hate.
    kizant likes this.
  7. Wulfhere Augur

    Heh yah, I semi-joke about paladins going HWIS but one of the secondary stats is wasted on the complimentary mental heroic.
    kizant likes this.
  8. Vumad Cape Wearer

    I get the jokes about hINT. I was just comparing augs.

    My plan for my SHD is hDEX group currency in all type 5 aug slots except those taken by these.

    ----Luclinite Ensanguined Harmony
    ----Luclinite Ensanguined Celerity
    ----Luclinite Ensanguined Proficiency
    ----Luclinite Ensanguined Resilience
    ----Mysterious Medicine Vessel
    ----Nimble Crystalline Shard
    ----Norrathian Stone of Sure Flight
    ----Servant's Sustenance
    ----Velium Threaded Harmony

    For my ENC main, my plan is the same, except HARMONY, hSTA and HINT versions with the rest being T1 group currency hSTA augs. Granted, my ENC Main will also have the Master's Curio. As an ENC, defensive is important to me, but I'm not sure the hAGI aug works out to anything meaningful with our soft caps.

    Open to hearing thoughts on any of the above.
  9. FranktheBank Augur

    You could stack hCha and be just fine to tank. Heroic choice has such a minimal effect on your tanking ability, which is why hDex is the default option, because its the only one that adds dps.

    If you end up like 30 points away from a shielding breakpoint, harmony would be cool.
  10. Maedhros High King

    Yea its not the default option.
    You mean to say that's the stat you choose as default.
  11. Treiln Augur

    I dunno honestly. If we were able to pool all tank classes from level 110-120, and check on their chosen heroic stat, you don’t think there’d be an overwhelming choice? I don’t know if that’s even possible or not.

    Doesn’t seem like even the top end raiding tanks are unified in their choice of Hstat.
    And while there may not be a “default” option, he’s not entirely wrong by saying that Hstat is of minor importance. The order/timing of when you use abilities is 95% of surviving as a tank.
  12. FranktheBank Augur

    Correct, me, as a sane person, chose the default, because of the aforementioned reasoned.
  13. Maedhros High King

    You could conduct an analysis of the top 100 or 200 of each tank class on magelo and give us the results!
    If i had to guess, I would bet that the only tank class with overwhelming usage of dex would be shadowknights, but I don't know what the percentage break downs would be.
    Just off the top of my head heres my guess.
    Warriors: 40% Hagi, 30%Hsta, 30% Hdex
    SK: 30% Hagi, 15% Hsta, 55% Hdex
    Paladin 25% Hagi, 45% Hsta, 30% Hdex

    Someone put in the work and figure it out!
    The real Sandaormo likes this.
  14. Szilent Augur

    you are literally making up numbers based on how you feel that other people you don't know feel about stats they don't understand? What the heck is the point of that exercise?
    Quatr likes this.
  15. Treiln Augur

    Well…I came here to point out, that while it is just made up on the spot, that if we break it down by the top 100 of each tank class we still get the “default” choice being HDex overall lol

    With 115 HDex / 95 HAgi / 90 HSta. Default is HDex lol
  16. Zunnoab Augur

    All that would show is what most do without evidence it matters.

    Like with Mindshear, I always saw people claiming attacking the "wrong" one popped punishment adds. But no, each shuffling mob has an ability. It happens the first on track was able to spawn an add, which would not respawn after that particular one died. Another fd'd, etc. But it was repeated so much people understood the best way was to kill the add spawner first, while at the same time not understanding how the event works.

    My point is a bunch of people imitating each other doesn't mean they know why, and as has been brought up the differences may be so minimal it doesn't matter especially vs. powerful mitigation abilities that dwarf min/maxing a certain stat.

    I claim no knowledge on this; what the herd is doing isn't evidence of what is best though.
    Lluianae and Szilent like this.
  17. Treiln Augur

    I claimed as much with:

  18. Maedhros High King

    Its called a guess bud, I even said as much in my post.
    guess
    [ɡes]

    VERB

    1. estimate or suppose (something) without sufficient information to be sure of being correct:
  19. The real Sandaormo Augur

    I liked the part about someone put the work in and show parses. Not just dps parses I think we would all agree Hdex would up that number, its how they all fair in tank survivabilty that would interest me. DPS all you want, if your dying, your not helping. Be a hard parse to quantify unless your in the same raid, same group, same healers, same adps ect ect
  20. Syylke_EMarr Augur

    I just want to point out that that's not a "default." That's a mode.

    This is the actual percentages (using your number counts), and it shows that hDEX is far from the "default" with 61.67% choosing not to use hDEX.
    hDEX: 38.33%
    hAGI: 31.67%
    hSTA: 30%

    This is not to say that hDEX is not the best option; just pointing out the mistake in using those numbers in that way.
    Maedhros likes this.