Can we fix the lag instead of just "addressing" it?

And extend the time that pet classes are nerfed and not seen as desirable in those raids? If you really want to push the swarm pets are the problem agenda why not make some suggestions to changing how swarm pets work instead of trying to banish all pets. If you just target swarm pets and make suggesting such as cutting back on the numbers and increasing the dps of the remaining swarm pets this becomes something you can test with all raids/instances/zones and be able to get lots of data to check for improvement.

I mean even if this fake nightmare nerf scenario of yours happened. Necros would still top the parse. Beastlords would lose about 0.5% DPS. And then Mages would still win most AE raids but parse like a Monk otherwise. Which is prob where they should be anyway. Regardless nobody here has suggested nerfing anything.

They are testing the widest margin of hypothesis/treatment.

When pharmaceutical companies run Phase 1 clinical trials, they often start with highest dose to test safety and efficacy. They then work to find the optimal dose.

What value is there from making a no pet raid that won't provide any valuable data because there is nothing to compare the lag without pets versus the lag with pets.

How many times does it have to be said that you can't compare the lag between events the lag on a single raid doesn't mean much as there are many factors that contribute to that lag besides the use of pets.

I'd score the value at around 87.

If you want to make a test it should be something that will provide useful results and suggesting a single new raid isn't going to provide any useful data. In order for them to know if something works to reduce lag they will need before and after data and you are not going to get that in a new raid. There is no reason to nerf some classes in a raid to try a flawed test that will not produce any useful data. Any way you look at it they are not going to remove all pets from raids so there is no reason to suggest them do that for a test.

Truthfully, it's a simplified but pointed suggestion. Darkpaw would draft their own experimental design. I don't think you would argue with them should they decide to pursue an experimental raid.

If charming a bard stops breaking my Xtar window, it is an improvement to the game no matter the impact on the lag.

I don't see why anyone would care about reducing the number of swarm pets if the net result to DPS is unchanged. Strange hill to die on.

And making a single experimental raid won't provide any useful data for the many reasons I have mentioned before. Lag comes from all types of play not just raids and reducing it is going to take changes that will impact everything not just a single raid.

The suggestions that I am objecting to isn't the reduction of swarm pets but the removal of pets from an induvial raid. I have included suggestions for reviewing the numbers of swarm pets and rebalancing as needed.

The complaints made here are largely about raid/instance lag and not Universal Chat lag, graphics lag, or Overseer lag. Could they be intertwined and involved? Sure, that's why testing is necessary.

Darkpaw could agree or disagree with my single experimental raid design but it's an impetus to run tests. If they are already testing, some transparency (i.e. data sharing) can help (to properly shape discussion about pets and procs).

And you keep missing the point that making a single new raid with the removal of pets is not going to get any useful data. If the problem is impacting all aspects of play the needed changes are going to impact all levels of play as well and not just a single raid. There are many things they can do to increase transparency and making a single raid isn't one of those things.

The cost of a single experimental raid is far more economical than a wholesale revamping of combat (AAs, spells) to "test" assumptions.

The single experimental raid design (properly designed) producing results or no results is far less of a burden than a year or more of work on combat.

A nightmare scenario: "They 'fixed' pets and procs but we still suffer from raid lag." It is more economical to assess, "The no-pet raid* shows a noticeable decrease in lag and we are putting our efforts towards streamlining pets."

*The T1 no-pet raid would apply across all servers concurrently to affect instances most in demand. This does not happen currently.

Of course it's a huge problem. It was really fun having to re-learn the Oubliette raid because it just plain didn't work correctly with the lag at launch, for example. The title is nonsensical because it implies it's a simple fix as I read it, not because the concern is nonsensical.

The costs don't matter if it doesn't provide data that would be useful. The focus needs to be on what would fix lag in raids, group instances and static zones. There is no need to make a raid that would nerf multiple classes when it won't provide useful data.

Grimlings finding the magic to banish summoned creatures is not a nerf. It's called a raid-specific mechanic.

Making a raid where a major part of a class isn't usable is a nerf it is just making a class less desired on that raid.

That’s no different than playing an enchanter.

Not sure what you are getting at here but I would oppose changing a raid that would impact an enchanter in a similar way as well.

A perfect post for the Veterans forum, lag really is a pain where almost nothing else matters until it gets fixed.

Wish I had a Magic wand that dispelled raid lag, that's for dang sure.