Rogues in early TLP - Should they be changed?

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Arclyte, Mar 19, 2020.

  1. Bewts Augur

    If it were me, I’d just fix them with
    1. innate haste that increases with level which ignores all haste/overhaste caps (they’re supposed to strike super fast) and
    2. make backstabs and AA obtained at an early level (like Harmtouch) which is usable from any direction but when used in a positional advantage (behind) it does unmitigated damage (hits for max damage).

    In this fashion you can tinker with the BS damage tables for each level / expansion independently of everything else and basically re-write how the damage gets calculated / modified. And this also improves the sustained damage potential because rogues will hit get many more hits in given equal modifiers although aggro could be a potential problem as rogues would be generating much more aggro from auto attack by volume of swings. So perhaps an innate de-aggro modifier / Proc on top of evade may be needed when rogues are in a positional advantage (behind).
    Wdor likes this.
  2. Kodachi Augur

    I'm pretty sure I already said this, in this thread even a couple months ago... but baseline chaotic stab in classic. Losing significant chunks of damage cause you can't hit from behind is dumb. Every melee loses dps from the front, but rogues get the same penalty + backstab.
  3. Dyzalot Augur

    I've played a few rogues as a main on TLPs. I am in no way an expert on late game rogues. My experience with them is mostly through Velious.

    I've heard a lot about how difficult it is for rogues to get the back of mobs so they can use backstab. As a rogue I disagree. I almost never have a problem finding the back of a mob. What I do have a problem with is mobs flipping. So for anyone that doesn't know, if you fire your backstab hotkey when not having the back of the mob, you hit for 1hp of damage and your BS goes into cooldown. So any of the solutions about backstab working from the front need this to be automatic. If it involves hitting a different hotkey then not much is solved. This is because probably 95% of the time where I fire my backstab without the mobs back is because between the time my BS pops and my finger goes to hit it, the mob flips to maybe try and root me, root a caster behind me, gets aggro from another melee dps positioned near me or something else. But my point is that in that instance had I an option to fire a "front" backstab with a different skill, I still would have misfired my normal backstab because the timing of the mob flipping is so quick. So just keep that in mind when considering how to improve backstab for rogues in the early game. As far as I'm concerned, if backstab just didn't fire at all when you are in front of the mob and didn't go into cooldown, that right there would increase dps as the rogue would have the ability to quickly strafe around, fire his BS again and get the desired result long before the cooldown would have ended had it fired while in front. That to me seems like a very simple fix that wouldn't affect the overall game or any other class.

    Here are a few other things I think could marginally help rogues in the early stages of a TLP:

    1) Scouting - As long as I've been playing D&D and other RPGs, I've always thought of the scout as a sub genre of the rogue. Given this it seems to me that at minimum rogues should have some kind of indoor tracking skill. In D&D we always had the rogue scouting ahead for traps and such while leading the party through a dungeon. Some kind of rogue tracking skill for dungeons seems appropriate and would give a small bump to a rogue's utility to a group.

    2) Shared invis - How about a skill for dungeons that let's a rogue "share" his sneak/hide skill with one other person such that he could help escort a player from the dungeon entrance to camp to join an established group? Again something that shouldn't really affect the game that much but would give a rogue a bit more utility to a group in places like Seb, Lguk or the Hole.

    3) Rogue taunt - No idea why rogues don't have a taunt of some sort. It shouldn't be something you can constantly use but a skill that has like a 2-5 min cooldown or something to be able to use to peel a mob off of a caster which you can then drop aggro to the tank once he has established enough hate. Again this seems to fit within the fantasy idea of a rogue throwing insults and such in order to antagonize and get the attention of an enemy. This would be another skill that wouldn't change much. It wouldn't allow a rogue to constantly hold aggro. But he could grab aggro quickly from one mob in an emergency.

    So these are a few of the ideas I've considered in the past of skills or abilities that may help rogues a little in early TLPs hopefully without affecting anything major in terms of game balance.
    Wdor likes this.
  4. Flexin Not an amateur

    Give rogues 'Kick' - monks are able to use punches and kicks, why are rogue's unable to kick and backstab? Simple fix as far as I'm concerned that could bring up DPS in earlier xpacs.

    My own personal wish for rogues is for 2hand piercing. Maybe with an AA, allow rogues to equip 2hp and watch the big backstab numbers fly across the screen. That's a pipe dream, however I will take kicks in lieu of nothing.
  5. Rauven Augur

    I would caution against suggesting things that would have a large impact on live servers. A kick skill for example, would have an impact on a rogue in live. As would a taunt. To my knowledge there is no way to grant such abilities in classic and then remove them later. And even if there was, that would be clunky, weird, and unfair. Unless the kick shared the same cooldown as backstab, but that won't solve the issues of random mobs turning while someone clicks or autoskills backstab.

    This is why many have suggested rebalancing the 1-75 level range of 1hp ratios. The base damage should be raised to improve autoattack damage. And thus the consistency of rogue DPS. While this would have an effect on live, it would be negligible (as well as helping live with the same issue TLP has in that level range).

    Another thing I think would be good for rogues is returning basic backstabs to the front back to what they used to be (at least from what I can remember from 20 years ago). A simple attack, not a 1 dmg attack. So without chaotic stab, a frontal backstab would simply be a normal weapon attack.
    Wdor likes this.
  6. Dyzalot Augur

    A taunt that only works on one mob every five minutes would have an impact, no not just an impact but a "large impact" on live? Really? If that were really the case, you could have the skill only work on mobs up to lvl 70 or something like that. But it surprises me to hear that a single use taunt that can only be used once every few minutes would somehow have a huge impact on live.
  7. hobi New Member

    I agree we should not change live. I think there are many great ideas in this thread. It's just a question of if anyone wants to improve things for rogues. It's a shame rogues are worse relative to other classes that got buffed in TLPs versus how the game was.
  8. Rauven Augur


    Well if it has no impact on live, then it is pointless to do on TLP too. But the thing is, it would and the damning effect it would have is the changes it would have on current encounters. If rogues have a taunt they can do every minute or so, then its a new strategy open to a class that didn't have it before. This may not be a bad thing, but it also may not fit the intended role for the class either. Same thing with a Kick ability, this is a DPS increase for classes like Bard, Warrior, and Ranger. Does live rogues need that boost in damage? Probably not.

    This is why two things have been suggested are better options. The first one being improving the ratios on level 1-75 1-Handed Piercing weapons. This would affect weapon options on live for levels 1-75, but since they have a problem in that level range too, it would probably be a welcome change and have little impact in the current content (which is 45 levels higher). The second being either a shift of Chaotic Stab being reduced in requirements, or allowing backstabs from the front to do normal weapon attack damage. Again this would only have an effect on live in the lowest of level ranges, again where rogues do lag behind even in live.

    Any change in TLP is going to have an effect on live. But you want changes that have limited effect, with changes prior to level 80 probably being preferred.
  9. Dyzalot Augur


    What are tou talking about? You are defeating a "straw man". Of course a taunt every minute or so would affect live. That's why I suggested every five minutes and I suggested limiting it to mobs of 70 or lower. Please explain how that change would have a "large impact" on live.
  10. Dyzalot Augur


    This is dumb. Putting locked doors in Unrest on TLP had no affect on live yet it gave rogues more utility on TLP. Giving an effect that only works on mobs up to level 70 would have no affect on live yet it would affect TLP. You aren't considering all possibilities when you make the ignorant statement that if a change doesn't affect live then it isn't worth doing for TLP.
  11. Janois New Member

    The average monk can beat the sweatiest rogue. It's pathetic. Rogues require positioning. A monk can effortlessly steal aggro off an equally geared warrior by facerolling their discs lol. There is zero reason to be a rogue over a monk. If you are playing rogue over monk from classic - TSS (especially omens-TSS), you're shooting yourself in the foot. Anything a rogue can do, monk does better. Their picklock isn't even needed when everyone and their grandmother are boxing a bard. Rogues should at least be good at the only thing they do... DPS.

    Buff their poisons, buff their ratios, buff their chaotic stab... idc. But do something... Surely there's some way you can make them better without messing with Live servers.
    Bobbybick likes this.
  12. CyryllisFenninRo Lorekeeper

    Just modify the backstab damage in the lower levels to at least make rogues somewhat decent in the early tlp era. I would love for them to revamp early poisons but considering the time that would take to do, I'll just assume it will never happen.
  13. mark Augur

    in raids on yelinak rogues with epic do a ton of damage
  14. Wdor Thief, Assassin, Purveyor of Fine Poisons

    Well said. I used to hav nightmares about your first paragraph. Even had to make a hotkey telling the tank to pull the mob away from the wall, until they figured it out, like we all had too.

    I love the taunt idea. I have always been a rogue who would sacrifice myself, if need be, no running to a caster's aid when they hot aggro. Especially the healer, as I think one rogue death is easier and faster to recover from than a wipe.

    Thanks for giving me flashbacks, heh.
  15. Ddezul Augur

    If they're in kunark, an SK will beat a rogue on burns.
    And Monks?
    Foh-git aboud it.