raid tanks and aggro disc?

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by strongbus, Jul 23, 2022.

  1. strongbus Augur

    we have a talk in our guild bout when and where a tank should use his/her aggro disc.

    some of use while knowing that aggro/dps is a 2 way street and that dps need to do as much as we can but still not take aggro from the thanks. But we also think that the tanks should be using all their tools to keep max aggro on the mob as much as they can.

    the head tank is saying that he thinks that the tanks snap/high aggro discs should be saved for a on the need bases for those times they lose and need to re get aggro as needed. and that they are not needed for normal tanking of a raid boss.
  2. Cadira Augur

    Simple answer from me personally:

    DPS can "Do what they can" (silent casting, silent strikes, common sense stuff and what not) but should absolutely not hold anything back that would lower their dps just because it forces the tanks to have to press their own buttons.

    "Head Tank" sounds like a warrior so I'm not sure what they think they're losing by hitting high agro abilities the entire fight....
  3. josh Augur

    As a knight, if I'm casting aggro, I'm not generally able to cast stuff that can keep me alive

    This problem is made worse by the fact that most classes don't actually generate a meaningful amount of aggro. There are just a couple who are way out of balance because of certain abilities, mostly nukes that can't be focused and so have high base damage with no hate override. If those people know their abilities and control their aggro then it's fine, if they don't i have to waste time fighting them and only them and that's annoying.
    Wulfhere likes this.
  4. Szilent Augur

    This question's extreme lack of specificity makes it impossible to even begin discussing, imo.
    Cadira likes this.
  5. strongbus Augur

    as op i can give some more details.

    we got a smaller family style raiding guild nothing to hardcore.

    currently when we fighting the raid boss we have to give the mt(one of our 3 wars) bout 15 sec to build some aggro before the assist call is giving and even then some of use even without using any burns with in 1 to 2 sec can be sitting at 80+% aggro and sometimes even take it from the mt. that mean with in sec of the fight even starting some of us have to fd/fade/etc to lose aggro and such. and the mt are using clicking on of their aggro disc to take it back.

    its been asked of the MT can you guys start off with your aggro lock disc so we don't have that issue and dps will do what they need to keep as low as we can while still doing as much dps as we can.

    but the head tank has said tanks shouldn't have to use their big aggro disc/aa to hold aggro with dps. those are for ohh crap moments only. and are not needed for normal tanking of the mob. ie that dps should have to adjust their dps/aggro off of the normal fast reuse aggro stuff that tanks have.
  6. menown Augur

    It sounds to me like you have a lazy tank. Which classes are pulling agro?
  7. Syylke_EMarr Augur

    Somewhat different perspective, as I'm an SK rather than a warrior or paladin, but my general philosophy if I'm MTing something is: use it all, and use it often. On the flipside, if I'm DPSing the MT's mob, I find myself FDing very often to prevent myself from pulling aggro. Outside of event mechanics, there's really no excuse for any competent player to pull aggro from a competent tank anymore.

    As a basic rundown of my tanking for our Shei runs where I'm usually the MT and our strategy is max burn from the start:
    1. Hit Flash and Unrelenting as I trigger the event
    2. Fire every piece of aggro I have, including Harm Touch, to take full advantage of the slight aggro increase from Unrelenting
    3. Continue hitting everything as it comes off cooldown, possibly delaying things if Unrelenting is coming up soon to again take advantage of the slight boost
    Typically, no one gets above 20-30% on the aggro meter. But, again, I'm an SK so things like Harm Touch really help lock aggro in very quickly, and my self-healing spells are also the spells I use for aggro maintenance.
    That being said, it is absolutely part of a DPS's job to mitigate their own aggro. Should they have to do this at a substantial loss in DPS? No. Part of the tank's job is keeping aggro, so if you're losing aggro to someone that's already doing their part to reduce their aggro, then you're not doing your job.
  8. strongbus Augur

    i play a bst and i can do it. i seen monks in our guild as well.
    minimind likes this.
  9. strongbus Augur

    this is kinda what got this whole talking started. other night doing doomshade RL had sk grab doom each time he spawns and let the dps go to town. just to see the difference. But the war didn't like it cause to do that he have to use disc/aa that he see as ohh crap stuff and not to be used during normal tanking of the mob.
  10. Szilent Augur

    okay, yeah. That's really bad, and you can point them here to see it said.

    A tank engaging any target in any setting should at least use all of their abilities that will recycle before they engage their next target - those are in the category of "spam" abilities. So if the next enemy is a minute away, everything that takes a minute or less to recycle should be used. And the tank should likely be hitting some number of abilities that take even longer to recycle - there's usually sufficient of them to use one or two per engagement.

    The thing about raid targets is that virtually *every* agro ability will recycle before engaging the next, and so *every* agro ability should be used. Further, they should be used immediately, since nothing is gained by metering them out, and recycle time is lost. Each button permanently makes less agro if its use is delayed.

    As a warrior specifically, that means engaging with Dual-wield, Composite Shielding, Confluent Precision, and Determined Reprisal already on and clicking all of:
    Taunt (for warriors, Taunt has AA procs attached)
    Warlord's Fury
    Warlord's Aegis
    Bristle
    Blast of Anger
    Namdrows' Roar
    Warlord's Grasp
    Hurricane Blades
    Gut Punch
    Knee Strike
    Shield Splinter
    Phantom Aggressor, and
    Projection of Fury

    not "sometime soon after engaging" - they're all instant, they can/should all be laid down in like 2-3 seconds.

    If dps is going super hard from 100% instead of 99% , then the "big guns" w/r/t warrior agro is to click Rage of Rallos -then- Rampage after the initial buttons have been hit.

    There is such a thing as "oh smurf" abilities, but for an "oh smurf" situation to arise, someone generally has to have "smurfed up." Like a tank who loses agro has done. That is a failure state. The tank has failed.

    Buttons potentially in that category with regards to agro are those that go over the top of hate lists, bypass them. In terms of categories, if a button actually makes agro then it's a button that's part of the "don't get in a smurfed up situation" plan, not the "recover from smurfing up" one. Area Taunt, Ageless Enmity, Unrelenting Attention are powerful for recovering from failure. The whole list of stuff above is *not* good at that. If someone has actual millions more agro than the tank - not hyperbole, that's a trivial hole to fall in with modern numbers - then a a +20k or +60k button ain't gonna cut it.
    Tucoh, Iribabh and Conq like this.
  11. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    Paladins are worst for aggro atm, and except on some specific mobs with high MR (because half our aggro stuff including one of our biggest tools are easily resisted by magic resistant mobs, like, mob can be at almost dead before protest lands), we do fine. DPS should pull aggro if they go all out, otherwise, whats the point of aggro in the game? But we have plenty of tools to fight back. Only classes I can't take it back and keep it are warrior and sk, and I'm simply not going to bother fighting another tank.

    A warrior shouldn't be having these issues.
  12. Wulfhere Augur

    I find that I (paladins) have to use Audacity in group (and even on some raids) to land Protest reliably. That is 2 spells gems that paladins have to commit to and that do not do damage, in order to be a tank.
  13. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    And the time it takes to do that, and waiting for a chanter to tash in some cases, while the warrior bellows immediately on incoming while you take 5-6 casts to get protest to land just freaking stinks. The adds on zelnithak for example, are awful. At this point I'll spam stuff on my assigned mob (with the lag you get 4-8 casts of things off before they are in camp), and if another tank has it and I see their aggro stuff on it, I just move on and wait for the next one.
  14. kookoo Augur

    warrior lv 117 : Unrelenting Attention Rk. II :
    Gains your target's undivided attention for 18 seconds. During this period your armor class will increase by 5509, you will generate 60% more hatred than normal, and your allies will generate 90% less hatred than normal. This ability will only work on targets up to level 125.
  15. Triconix Augur

    What era?

    If this is a TLP, a warrior definitely needs ramp up time for aggro for quite some time. They just don't have enough clickable aggro.
  16. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    They talk about the aggro meter, so either they mean on live or a tlp that is pretty deep in.
  17. Zalamyr Augur

    This is sadly a mindset that infects a lot of players (dps, tank, and helaer), and drastically lowers their performance. Buttons are there to be used and should be used often. The only point in saving a button is if the button *for certain* could be better utilized in a future situation that is near enough it wouldn't have refreshed by that point. So sure, you probably don't need to bomb all your long refresh abilities on a mob that'll be dead in 30 seconds (although you can often rotate through 1 or 2 of your long refresh abilities on lesser mobs). But on most raid mobs, where you'll be tanking for awhile, holding back your buttons for a rainy day is stupid.

    This is basically the tank version of DPS classes that seems to think discs shouldn't be used as part of your sustained DPS and rather you should sit on them all night long until the perfect moment arises.
  18. Szilent Augur

    …and then boggle at top5 guilds magically finishing raid events in 6 minutes instead of 22
  19. Wulfhere Augur

    Well Audacity usually lands (-200 resist) and has some +hate too and using it really helps Parlay/Protest to land. I don't see other paladins using Audacity even though I feel it's now required due to mob resists. Sk have a similar issue here plus their irresistible spells so they aren't as needful of Protest/Parlay as paladins.

    Yep I think Zeli adds are a special case though because they alternate between melee and magic immunity. Both warriors and sk have irresistible aggro spells so they can grab either wave of adds consistently. A paladin only has Affirmation disc (10min refresh) to try to grab one from the magic wave. So I just focus on the melee waves and leave the others to them since they have the tools. Sk have a much stronger role as raid tanks over paladins who have other roles to fill.

    Paladins should have (nearly) as many irresistible +hate abilities as the other two tanks have. A paladin having no such abilities is a handicap.
    Maedhros likes this.
  20. Szilent Augur

    Affirmation disc is 4 minute reuse, but movin' past that,

    timer 6 Crush of Umbra
    timer 5 Crush of the Twilight Sea
    timer 4 Pious Force
    timer 3 Force of Generosity (this spell kinda sucks)
    whole Audacity line

    all have Hate Overrides. Whether or not the spell lands, they make their agro.

    The SK list is:
    Antipathy (pretty weak over time)
    Bargain (shares timer with the one good SK nuke)
    Terror line
    Audacity line


    it's… observable? that SKs never hope for anything other than agro from the Terror line, so it's somewhat more natural feeling, I guess, to keep using it for agro even if it's expected to "resist". But the way it keeps making agro is the exact same way that Crush/Crush/Force/Force keep making agro.

    Notably, Valiant targeting anything it'll land on will still add the witness agro of its recourse (3448 base, up to 20k if you heal yourself with it) to all the enemies that know about you. The SK parallel, Insidious, has to directly land to work. In your example of Zelnithak encounter, Valiant will work in all phases, Insidious will not work when adds are immune.

    Whether or not your raid force wants to rely on you in particular for tanking adds is one thing, but the paladin class is not without tools.