Developer mistakes that drove away casual players.

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The disproportionate power of raid gear.

The power of raid gear over group gear drove a giant gear wedge between players. It pushed casual players into raiding leading to burnout, it lead to overtuning of content, and it turned whole zones inaccessible to casual players where powerful gear became a daunting prerequisite to discovering new content.

Large power gaps between gear make it impossible to cater group content to a single playerbase. For players with raid gear, group content became trivial, one could make sub-optimal groups, could ignore the group loot table, and turned once challenging group content into a mockery.

You can not expect to create compelling content when your playerbase consists of 2 different demographics with widely different powers.

There was no need to make raid gear so powerful, there was no need to drive such a wedge between players.

The tolerance towards overtuned content.

The developer mantra was that it was easier to fix overtuned content and decrease the difficulty than increase the difficulty.

There was a tolerance towards overtuning content, the idea that the cost it had on casual player retention was manageable

From Gates to Cooling Chambers, developers never seemed to appreciate how destructive the overtuning of content was. The mantra of tuning content after launch lead to months of overtuned content, leading to many casual players throwing in the towel and quitting for good.

Misguided loot distribution leading into boxing.

Loot tables where only 1 person in the group receives an item resulted in groups that broke up, heated debates about loot, and lead to disappointment and frustration for other group members. It also leads to a desire to forego the whole idea of grouping with other people, and start boxing to control your own loot table instead.

Other MMO had long solved this by simply giving everyone in the party the item, making group loot tables much less contentious.

While some EQ expansions distributing currency overcame these limitations, and proved to be very successful with casual players, EQ kept on creating loot tables that discouraged grouping.

Undermining EQ's social fabric by allowing boxing.

Servers with player caps and EQ zones were created to hold a specific number of players. When a large portion of those players turn to boxing, the available matches that happen between single-account-holders diminishes greatly.

This in turn undermined the social fabric of the game. It turned a once healthy community, into one where everyone plays inside a bubble, people lost touch with the dwindling server community and eventually quit, the social fabric that once held players together, was no longer there.

I love the couple people that keep yelling in the dark with their same ridiculous stuff because they refuse to play a game the rest of us do.

The biggest thing is the fact that the game has archaic game controls/game engine

WoW is still so big because it actually feels like you have total control over your character. There's unmatched quality of movement

To address out of control stat/aa/etc.inflation, they really need to go back to basics and just do a cataclysm-esque expansion where they squish everything and delete tons of stuff, but this game is on life support and they'll never do anything ambitious

Also all of the zone revamps and modern graphics are just totally unappealing (not saying the old graphics are great, but they don't make you want to gouge your eyes out); the game needs new art direction to have a chance at drawing in a substantial amount of new players

Finally, there has to be something to do outside of just grinding/raiding. A good example of this is lost ark that has tons of side stuff to do, or even WoW with transmogrification collecting/pet battles. I think the card game that EQ used to have was decent, but it'd have to be more integrated into the game itself to really be good.

Title talks about casual players. Casuals don't raid. If you don't raid...... you don't need raid gear!
(full disclosure: haven't raided since 2002)

You may have a point here, I don't have a strong feeling here either way. But you may want to consider that part of the issue may be skill levels. If you tune the content for those who don't play to their potential, those who are very good will get very bored, very fast. If you must err on one side of "perfectly tuned", it's better to be on the overtuned side. Just not too much

Wow, if you seriously think that's what lead to boxing, you don't have a clue.

Boxing became popular due to people who can't or won't find groups, due to schedules, anti-social, whatever the reason is. Loot distribution had zero to do with it.

Do you like playing EQ? Because it likely wouldn't have existed for at least the last 10 years if not for boxers.

If a player boxes because their schedule doesn't allow for grouping, and you remove boxing, will they then start grouping? No, they'll stop playing. As long as boxers stay out of the way, why begrudge them the ability to play their way?

Of course it has something to do with it.

Not having to share loot is one of the perks of boxing. It gives you the ability to farm AC augments, Damage augments, spell scrolls, armor and weapon molds, without having to share any of the loot.

The EQ loot distribution makes it frustrating for single-account-owners to get specific items, since any person in the group can claim such item.

Laughable. Boxing did a lot of harm to this game.

The fact TLP that limit boxing are proven to be far more successful and healthy than those that tolerate boxing, should tell you boxing is not what keeps EQ going.

TLP where boxing was tolerated became wastelands, the social fabric deteriorated, grouping opportunities diminished, boxed farm accounts took over farm spots, these servers did not survive very long.

Players actively demand to limit boxing on TLP, because they realize it destroys the social fabric of the game. Many of which initially left EQ just because the widespread use of boxing was detrimental to the social fabric on their server.

Plenty of other old MMO are still around without being overwhelmed by boxed accounts. The idea that boxing "kept EQ alive" is pure fantasy, it did a lot of harm to the game.

If anything Tatanka, you should thank those truebox TLP that limit boxing keeping EQ alive. New revenue sure as hell isn't coming from veteran servers with an awful new player experience where everyone either boxes or logs on to raid for 2 hours and logs off. New EQ revenue is coming from TLP that severely limit boxing.

Servers with a high number of boxers, is not a sign of a healthy server. When a disproportionate number of players decides not to play with other players in a multiplayer game, it's a bad sign. The most successful games of today, are multiplayer games where players actively play together. They might not all be MMO, but what drives people to these games is the ability to actively interact with another player.

TLP servers have an entirely different sort of player, recyclers who abandon their servers for the new servers every year. Some don't last six months, some don't last one month.

There are way too many threads from casuals on TLP's who believe that if the unlocks were 6 months or a year then people would be forced to come group with them

This whole thread is just a rehash of the "People aren't having fun the right way" arguments

There's plenty of boxing on TLP. Both legitimate and otherwise. It's universally tolerated.

TLPs don't become wastelands because of boxing. They lose players because of -newer- TLP's. For many people, the itch to restart is strong. So they leave. This exodus strips many guilds of valuable players, thereby causing even -more- people to leave. Mix in some unhealthy "Fear of Missing Out", and that's why servers are dead.

There are plenty of grouping and social opportunities in EQ. However, by nature, it's a top-heavy game. Plenty of folks want to level quickly, and do the latest raid content. So a lot of the socialization is happening at level-cap.

Perhaps if we didn't have a new pair of TLPs every year (each continuing to spread the user population thinner across more servers), then when people got an itch to reroll at level 1? They'd do it on their same, home servers. On any given day, there would be more people around in the lower levels. And the overall server population wouldn't get diluted every Spring.

That's never going to happen, because TLP's are profitable. But it's interesting to think about.

I've seen this comment a LOT.

It is not the POWER of the raid gear, but the KNOWLEDGE the raid geared players have on how to play their characters.

It takes a LOT of time and practice and searching through various posts, both here, and on guild web sites like Freelance which thankfully makes their guides open to the public.

Most casual players are not going to take the time to look up those guides, practice them, parse them, and get to the point they can do those rotations in their sleep.

Boxing on truebox really isn't all that bad. For the first bunch of expansions the game is very slow paced, using multiple computers isn't that bad. Consider that most groups just sit in one camp sometimes for hours at a time and a caster or healer can easily be played with just a numpad and good keybinds.

While I agree the gap is too big (especially on gear AC, and weapon ratio).
But gear is not the issue. It's player skill.

I regularly see people roll into casual raids in group gear and blow away people in raid gear.

It's knowledge/skill/attention/being awake - Take your pick but it's not gear as long as you have gear that lets you be tall enough to ride the ride.
(Obviously if your gear won't let you survive an ae you're kinda stuck)

Everquest needs a stat and level squish.

Content is tuned for group gaming. Most of it doesnt even require a full group. Just not solo. And before the whatifs get here, yes some classes can solo content. Doesnt change the fact that by and large the content is "tuned" for groups. It is not overtuned when it comes to groups.

That really is part of it but it is also a big part gear. There is a lot a skilled player can do with sub-optimal gear but at some point it's just not enough. I recently ran into that playing Silver on my main for week. Being cut off from his raid gear I hit a quest I just couldn't complete in time, would burn the full 6 hours trying to rush through it with every trick I could muster to speed it up. An hour after I re-subbed I did that same quest in less than an hour.

Raid geared I I have enough mana and mana regen that I can regulate mana to recover it without ever needing to stop to med up. I take less damage per hit and receive less hits to the tune of 50% of damage from mob drops right off. Can get in more swings when I'm not casting as much which will be more than normal with the overhaste, double, and tripple attack mods. All of that was missing without the raid gear, and as a result kept me away from some content that was actually fun for the level.

Gear may only get you so far but skill can't get you all the way either. It's the combination of these things that set raiders so far ahead of group players. There are after all group players that are future raiders or were raiders in their past and does possess above average skill. My first guild was full of such players and often taught the less knowledgeable all the stuff we could to get them up to our level of play.

I still think the number one aspect that is turning away some casual players lately is tying nearly all the regular exp gain to missions/tasks. Casual players that don't have a lot of boxes are going to hit a fairly large wall when they try to level from 110-120.

The game is slowly bleeding high-end players as well with the state of the raid game/instances currently. On our weekly raid nights, 60-70% of our raid instances are broken, as in severe lag with raid mechanics and classes not functioning properly (doing 30-50% less DPS then normal). Many people are either not logging on for raids as much as they used to or have already quit due to this specific issue. Nobody wants to play a broken game, which it certainly is right now for people that are primarily interested in raiding only.

The bleeding of high-end players is feeling faster.

So you're main account EXPIRED turning all your raid gear WORTHLESS and had trouble soloing a quest.

The original assumption implies raid gear is needed for group content because the content was over tuned.

Trying to run anything as a silver player is going to be way harder, if not impossible because the content wasn't tuned for that.

I believe a few items have hurt the game the most...

• Hell Levels were an Issue
• Graphics, UI/UX
• Bloated Ability Bars
• Bloated Stats
• Krono
• Boxing
• Raid or Die
• Boring Dungeon Crawling Loot
• Quest Gated behind Raiding
• No-drop Items
• Enchanter Charming
• Class Balance / Class Representation
• Classes Locked behind Expansions
• Ability to Solo / Find Groups
• Pet Buffs

If they would just make it more D&D/Diablo style loot system where it rains loot no one would care. It might not be BiS but it is an upgrade. Make it BoE, done most loot fights would not happen. The RNG is RNG is a lame excuse. All it causes is spats. I still play but these are the issue why a lot of people I have played with over the years left.

None of those are critical problems with the game, except for over tuning. The biggest problem with the game, by far, is the deterioration of its core game play loop.

See, the core game play loop in Everquest - and the reason people still play it today - are actually quite fun, and it's why people return to it, year after year. The best description of it is a relatively slow game, where classes are strongly differentiated, and where strategy - defined by group composition and progression path - and tactics - defined by abilities usage, positioning, and timing - have a large influence on game play success throughout the game.

This is as opposed to a game like modern World of Warcraft, where tactics and strategy don't matter until the end game, because mashing your abilities as fast as you can will take you through the vast majority of the game and you can level wherever and whenever without it making a large difference. World of Warcraft's core game play loop is that of a "theme park" - as it's often called - where you just follow the arrows to see the attractions until you're done.

Just by the above alone, Everquest is a more "hard core" game than World of Warcraft. It has more depth, and it's not as casual. This is why it was less successful among actual casual players - the type that would never play Everquest. Everquest isn't a casual game, it never was. No game that requires sound tactics and strategy to even get to the higher levels can be "casual" in the sense that most people in the industry uses that term.

So having established Everquest as a relatively "hard core" game, the question is why is it becoming less satisfying by the year to play it? The reason is that much of the mechanics that gave the Everquest core game play loop its original identity is being eroded:

Tactics reduction. One of the strongest features of classic Everquest was the variety of tactics available to players. Beyond the standard holy trinity, there was kiting, quad kiting, charming, swarm charming, fear kiting, root rotting, life tap tanking, stun locking, aoe grouping, etc. and those were just the ways you could get experience. Never mind the amount of ways you had to approach pulling, crowd control, and mitigating damage. Yet, modern Everquest has decided, more and more, to get rid of these "exploits" and to standardize around a set of "intended" behaviors. This reduction in tactical diversity makes the game less satisfying to play and less subject to creative problem solving - one of the reasons Everquest was fun, in the first place.

Strategic homogenization. This is related to the above, but classic Everquest supported a variety of group compositions and progression paths. It felt more like a sand box game where you can make decisions and they do matter. Consider doing your early levels in, say, the Ocean of Tears, instead of Black Burrow, West Karana, and High Pass. There is a large impact, there. Consider taking a bard instead of an enchanter, or a cleric instead of a shaman. Again, large impact. Modern Everquest has done away with most of this through standardizing the progression path - it's always the same mercenary tasks, partisan tasks, & missions, followed by hunter achievements; and forcing role homogeneity through tactics reduction. In a game where you have DPS checks that you just have to hit because there's no strategic alternative, everybody takes the same classes that optimize for those parameters.

I could go on with details but I think I've already spent enough time on this. You either agree or don't, at this stage, and more evidence won't convince veterans one way or another. But for me, at the minimum, Everquest's decline is not related to its treatment of "casual" players - but to the destruction of what made it fun, in the first place. Everquest was not and will never be World of Warcraft, but in chasing that prize, it lost much of its own identity. That might make it an easier game to "develop" for; but a worse game to actually play.

Did you replace all your raid gear with group gear? Also, you can only use Tier 1 group gear as Silver, as Tier 2 is Prestige (All Access only).

Also as Silver you can only use Rank I spells / Discs / Songs. Can only use Apprentice mercenaries.

Regardless of the merits of any of the points made in this thread, using a Silver account to try to make a point is invalid. Silver and Free accounts are always, and designed to be, weak.

The concept of a Free and Silver account is to give someone an idea of the game, a free sample, with the idea of them then deciding they like it enough to pay. The other concept is to allow other characters to assist your paying account in minor ways. Having additional Free/Silver account(s) lets you do more with your paying All Access account.

TLDR: Free and Silver accounts are designed as either temporary accounts to test the waters or bonus accounts to add value to your paid account. Any attempt to use one to judge the difficulty of the game or the full content of the game is meaningless.

This is not a comment on the validity of the OP, just on the idea of using Silver or Free account experiences to judge the game as a whole.