Why are Shamans almost universally thought to be better then Druids?

I have pulled plenty as a druid and I never ran out of mana. My level 1 fire nuke takes like 15 mana. I can regen double that standing up in one tick. It also doesn't pull a lot of aggro and casts fast, so the tank can get the mobs off me quickly when I get back to camp. My low level root doesn't take all that much more mana, and last plenty long enough to function as CC. Snare is cheap too. Puller's shouldn't be using their highest level nukes to pull with, that is a recipe for death. But all you need is a level 1 nuke to pull the mob into camp, where you scrape it off onto whoever happens to be sitting around. Maybe you toss out a root or two if you happened to bring in more than your group can handle, and then you are back out looking for more mobs.

You never run out of mana because you are never using a lot of mana. Maybe a heal here or there, but you can med that back next fight. You served your purpose for the group by bringing the mob into camp. A monk who punches the mob 3 times before heading back out isn't contributing a whole lot more than just pulling either.

Druids don't get anything unique that makes them as good as shamans, maybe in the MUCH later xpacs things even out but at least up until planes of power, druids are meh except being an extra box character.

Sounds like the shaman class needs to be looked at for being OP.

You know, I don't believe that I've ever seen a complaint about Shaman being nerfed in the past.

There's not a class in the game that doesn't make an adequate puller if all you care about is going out and tagging mobs to bring for your group to kill.

The problem with Druids vs Shaman (early game) is the same problem as Sks vs Paladins...

There is very little reaso to play Druids or Paladins in early EQ...

Now lets debate Sks vs Paladins

Funny you say that about SK vs Paladins. With the recent bonus XP and that fact my two main toons are at the level cap already, I was looking for a alt to level. I have really liked SKs in the past but I swear half my guild is a SK so I was like, what about Pally and honestly couldn't find a single reason to play a Pally over a SK. What were the devs thinking when they came up with the Pally spell lines.

First, I mean I get the heals, that is a very useful skill that allows the Pally to spot heal here and there but it is hardly strong enough to do more than that and trying to self heal though a fight just means your not doing any dps to the mob when you have limited DPS. in the first place so that kind of self healing while being beat is self defeating. SKs on the other hand can efficiently self heal while fighting without losing any DPS and in fact probably gain DPS while doing so.

Then there is the undead only damage tools of the Pally which is understandable but that is the only damage tools they get for the most part meaning no extra damage tool for living targets. That might be fine if the Undead only damage was a special characteristic of only Pallies but the SK gets them too AND plenty of damage tools that can be used against the living in the form of lifetaps, DoTs and even DD spells in later expansions.

Then Pallies get stun which SKs don't get but at best stuns provide a little ADPS but since you can't do much damage in the 4 second duration of the Stun, aside from spell interrupts and aggro, it does little to add to the Pallies capabilities to take on mobs.

Then the is Rez which is damned useful but sadly only useful once you have failed in some way, form or fashion. Basically a utility skill with little use in the day to day outside of raids.

And that is pretty much it. Meanwhile the SK gets a pet which while not useful early on, is a source of extra damage and becomes much more potent as the game progresses. Then there is the fact that in later expansion the SK gets to a spell line similar to Lich for mana regen while I don't think Pallies get anything similar. Finally, there is Feign Death which is one of the most OP skills/spell lines in the game for general day-to-day usage.

Oh almost forgot. Pallies do get Lay-on-hands which I can't deny is useful but with the long cooldown it is emergency use only and has little effect in normal day-to-day gameplay. However, SKs get an answer to this as well in Harm Touch which, while not as useful as Lay-on-hands, is still fairly useful as an emergency, burn it with fire, tool. Also, I would also argue that on demand, Feign Death is a more useful emergency, get out of jail free tool, than Lay-on-hands.

So yeah, I can't really find many reasons out of edge case scenerios like for RP purposes, just to play something different or raiding (for the quick rez'es in attrition boss battles) why anyone would chose a Pally over a SK.

Bringing it back on topic, I would argue that Druids, while maybe not as good as Shamans overall, Still have a whole heck of a lot going for them and many legitimate reasons why you might want to choose one over a Shaman when compared to a choice between a Pally and a SK.

A long winded post that analyzes a class for maybe 10% of the game.

Pally self heals are now instant cast. Basically all Pally heals are either <1 second or instant cast time. Pally splash is the single most powerful heal in the game. Pally crushes (dps + aggro) are <1 second cast time. Pally stuns are <1 second cast time.

How can you with a straight face state that chain stunning a mob won't be able to help a paladin take on mobs? They'll take basically zero damage.

Someone told me that LOH does target of target if you have a mob targeted. Is that true? I have never played a paladin, mainly because they get a unicorn.

Also, when does the good stuff you listed kick in? After OOW? Before?

LOH is target's target if your current target is a mob, yes. Same with ranger and bst heals.

Pally stuns start becoming short cast times as early as GOD iirc. Their heals even prior. Crushes don't come out until SOD(?). Splashes are around same time.

I am analyzing the classes based on how they look side by side to each other from the perspective of someone trying to decide which class to invest 100 hours into, not someone who has played each for 100 hours. From that perspective, the Pally doesn't seem to offer anything close to what a SK offers.

Also:

Light Healing - cast time 2.0 seconds
Healing- cast time 2.5 seconds.
Greater Healing - cast time 3.0 seconds
Superior Healing - cast time 3.5 seconds

Through level 50 which is what we have on Yelinak right now. Not seeing those instant cast heals.

Even going up through Planes of Power, not seeing any instant heals of any time other than Lay-on Hands.

So going up through almost a year of content, i.e 8 weeks Classic, 8 week Kunark, 8 weeks Velious, 8 week Luclin, no instant heals that I can find unless I am missing something.

Also I am not saying they can't tank, because empirical evidence suggests otherwise. Hell my guild leader is a Pally and advocates how OP he thinks they are but when I am looking at the SK spell line up verse the Pally spell line up, though PoP era, it just doesn't look like there is even a comparison in capabilities.

I would also go so far as to say if you consider the uneven distribution of people playing SK vs people playing Pallies, many others see the same things I do when deciding what to play.

Pally are pretty bad Pre-GoD, but they get significantly better after that when their group heals really take off.

I still dont know if they are better than SK though, but they at least have a fighting chance in GoD+ than the early expansions.

Ah, sadly then they will never be for me. I tend to stop in OOW. The latest I ever make it is Depths of Darkhollow.

Lol, tl;dr assessment that has me laughing. I think the best way to appreciate any class is to play it solo and learn its limits. Levels 1 to 50, a paladin is simply a warrior + cleric spells that can handle anything an SK can, just differently. Bypassing some content with a FD run is about the only trick an SK has over a Pal before general fade abilities. After 51+ every class becomes more unique and yet more interchangeable too.

Shaman are best in melee groups. Druids are the best big-game hunters.

Everything you said continues to reinforce my first point: You're analyzing a class while wearing blindfolds. Every example you listed is a a drop of water in the ocean that is this game. Even going as far as POP as you say is only 4/29 (14%) of the game's spells. It's honestly more because the deeper you go the more spells and active AAs you get. Basically you're looking at 5% of the game and making an misinformed judgement.

Just as an FYI, you need to read what I wrote before replying. None of the spells you listed are self heals. Also, by the time POP comes around the spell cast times for their single target heals drops to just 1 second. As do their stuns.

If people want to put personal thresholds and limits to their view, that's fine. Just keep it to yourself because otherwise is just comes across badly. Classic-Velious are objectively the worst eras of game design for classes. It's just staggering how badly classes were balanced and designed and yet people continue using that as the holy grail for class discussions. Making broad, sweeping statements about a class while using 10% of all data is bad practice. It doesn't take a scientist to realize that. It's just common sense.

The problem with all this is 90% of the TLP community doesnt care about the 90% of the game your talking about. You can argue all day long about how classes get good in expansion umber 16/24 but when 90% of the TLP community has quit by that time and gone to the new classic start, no one cares.

This thread was made with Yelinak and classic in mind...and we all know that post PoP the classic community gets pretty small (though Mischief is bucking that trend slightly). So, while your ultimate assertion is correct that what we are saying here only is relevant to the first 14% of the game...for the TLP community, THAT is the whole game and your expansion 18/24 has zero relevance to this topic.

GoD is when EQ turns to poop

Thank you for sparing my thumbs from articulating the exact same point.

Druids have a single, generally accepted form of pronunciation:
druː.ɪd

Shaman have three different forms of pronunciation:
ʃeɪmən
ʃɑːmən
ʃæmən

In conclusion, druids are superior. Because I can discuss them in voice chat, without feeling like I'm pronouncing them incorrectly.

I've always pronounced it as shaw-men, and I haven't had anyone correct me so far.