No, the devs do not need to reinvent the wizard..just a small adjustment

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Highwizard, May 18, 2022.

  1. kizant Augur

    Sadly the post was deleted.

    Considering how few good wizards there are I think it's funny that people think it's a dumb/easy class to play. And we clearly have some of the bigger penalties whether it's constant blindness/root/hitting ourselves for 200k worth of damage during raids or not being able to molo anything of value. If you haven't been playing one for the past 20 years I don't know why anyone actually would choose the class.
  2. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    From what I remember last time I had a bard, bards made wizzy synergy redundant, not sure if they do the same for other classes.

    I've lost track of wizzy stacking issues, mainly due to a bard with any other dps giving them more ADPS than a wizzy so we don't get one, we get mages, chanters, druids and necros. I think 2 chanters still boost a wizzy more than a chanter and a bard, but I've not checked in a while so it could be old info. I just deal with what we are dealt.
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  3. Highwizard Augur

    So to be more clear this is a constructive topic I am NOT here to berate any player or class; the point is alot of people are calling for massive wizard buffs on here and in game and it is not necessary. I am very competitive with my guilds way of raiding and dpsing.

    Wizards do need their own personal burn, our "burns" are not very powerful on their own, now when stacked with IOG and Haze and great wolf and w.e the bards do yes they are but on their own they are not. Which is why I feel the Devs should look into boosting frenzied devastation or arcane destruction. Maybe add some more base damage to our ethereals.

    Mana burn haha thats a whole different story worth a separate thread xD. They screwed that up years ago, and I agree with kizant if you have not been playing wizard for along time there is no reason to start now, but dont write it off as a bad class because if you play it right it is not a bad class it competes well.

    As for peoples rage over mages and their swarm pets...I am not going to comment on that xD.

    A small boost is all we need or an overall balance of the caster dps classes to get things more inline instead of just boosting this or boosting that and never actually fixing the underlying issue. We need balance.
    ChiiChii likes this.
  4. Kaenneth [You require Gold access to view this title]

    Could start improving wizard raid DPS by allowing more cross-fulminations of alliances.

    Right now we got 4-6 mages, and zero wizards in our raids. if the mages could trigger the wizards alliance spells (and cross-wise) like healer alliances do, we could mix it up without losing DPS.
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  5. Highwizard Augur

    alliances become obsolete the next expansion we get a new one every other expansion and they are a huge mana sink...now they have their purpose on the wizard when no adps is up and your not running any personal AAs but outside of that coalition is just a mana sink least on wizards.
    ChiiChii likes this.
  6. Kaenneth [You require Gold access to view this title]


    yeah, that's why I'm saying they should be improved.
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  7. Arkanny Augur

    If FD was reverted back to its first incarnation we could be up to something... Can always dream =P
    Highwizard likes this.
  8. ChiiChii Augur

    I main a wizard and have since i began playing in 2002. We are far less utility than other casters have now become (dru/shm got rez ability). A wizard's main goal is to seek destructive and infinite power. Introduced the sympathetic proc line, then it was reduced because of server/instance performance. Now I do not know whether the reduction in their procs was class specific, however those are, imho, mandatory for us when raiding. Rather than rely on ADPS to boost our total damage potential, the procs certainly provided an advantage we hadn't had in quite some time.
    The clicky effect on our epic 1.5/2.0 is not beneficial at higher levels.

    Our requests may seem to fall on deaf ears and it can leave some resenting the class or the class resenting the developers with whom we all communicate on a daily basis here. All I'd like to ask for is acknowledgement of our pleas and actual participation in discussions on what we, as players, need and you, the developers/engineers/project leaders, tell us your vision for considering adjustments. There's not a mean spirit in my post and is entirely genuine.
  9. kizant Augur

    It has been over a year since the proc nerf and they have all the data they need. So, it's not surprising that people feel like they're being ignore when nothing has been done to address the change impacting wizards more than anyone else with regard to total damage lost. Unless they think they did that with the direct damage increase? We don't really know.

    The direct damage increase also seemed to be done quickly in beta but we were told it's all they had time for which implies they understand it's not a good solution. Which OK at least that's something but the result also made some other classes completely broken just like we said it would. Which is what prompted a lot of the recent complaints. And if tailoring a change like that to one class really adds many hours/days to the work involved then they clearly need better tools to get their job done. It seems crazy to me that after 20 years it's still so hard to change one number in a handful of spells.

    I really wish they did a lost about class balance issues like they did for lag. Explain the difficulties and at least discuss that they understand what changes should ideally be made if they have time.
    ChiiChii, Skuz, Metanis and 1 other person like this.
  10. Xurn Journeyman

    A common theme of this topic is that the wizard class is in need of change to boost dps capabilities to, in the least, balance the classes. Here are some specific changes that I believe would be quick and easy for a Dev to enact, and would make a marked improvement wizard potential if the player is skilled enough to use wisely.

    Update Frenzied Devastation in the following ways:
    1. Increase the number of counters from 55 to 100+
    2. Increase the critical direct damage for spells from 95% to 120%
    3. Reduce the cool down timer from 12 minutes to 10 minutes
    4. In association with any changes to #1, reduce the current increased mana cost from 50% to 25% or other scalable % based upon the increased number of counters.

    Update Arcane Destruction
    1. Reduce the cool down timer from 15 minutes to 12 minutes.

    Changes to these two AAs provide the wizard class with the potential of making a marked increase in wizard dps. I underscore the word potential because it relies upon the player to manage use of the AAs, and to not die with of course ends the effect.

    Side note: I've tested the speed in which counters can be consumed. Currently, all 55 counters can be consumed by chain casting ethereal level spells w/o any twincast effects in just under 3 minutes. So boosting counters can easily be consumed with twincast, shorter cast time spells, and the prolonged duration effect.
  11. Highwizard Augur

    Now this is an actual constructive conversation love it. Hopefully someone notices, there is a problem with the wizard many of us know what the issue is, and we are long overdue for someone to spend a little time looking at the issue with the class.

    I agree with Xurn, that is a sure way to give us an actual burn and you will still have to manage your AAs according to adps, and it is not an overkill bump in power to not upset the game. I also vote for slightly stronger nukes to go with this with maybe increased aggro so you have to manage that again as well in pursuit of power.

    Class roles are long gone but the wizard with its lack of utility outside of ports needs to be the class that pursues power at high risk of death like it used to be like 20 years ago haha.
    ChiiChii and Skuz like this.
  12. Cicelee Augur

    Wizards need some love. 100% agree. How much love, of course, is the question.

    I also think there is a disconnect between wizards within the class as to where that love should go. Some want burst, some want sustained, some want pets, some want utility, it is all over the place. We all agree that wizard DPS needs to improve, but where?

    Personally, I think devs need to decide how long "burst" should be. Are we talking one minute? Two minutes? Four minutes? Whatever they decide, you then take an equally geared/skill/AA wizard, magician and necro. Have them go all out with appropriate raid ADPS. At the end of that duration, if a wizard is not first and a necromancer is not last... then fix that. The wizard should be at the top of that, and then start to fall off the cliff.

    Another issue IMHO is that most of the events in TOL are not "burst" events, outside of Shei. If you have an expansion where your nine events all take 20 minutes to complete for most guilds, then a wizard is always going to finish behind a necro and a mage. Hopefully next expansion have some "burst" events where the wizard will beat the mage and necro and feel better about things...
    ChiiChii likes this.
  13. Xurn Journeyman

    Cicelee - I would qualitatively suggest "lots" of love, as a response to your question. I say this because in most of the modern raids there is a requirement for a player to move around from call-out emote, floor decals, etc. Each of the other cloth wearing caster classes has either a pet and/or DOTs which will continue to perform significant damage while the player moves. The wizard cannot cast virtually all spells while moving, and does not another mechanism to perform significant damage. I exclude both wizard swarm pets and pyromancy because in a raid setting, the summation of their damage is insignificant.
    My wish would be for the direct damage output from a wizard be increased to a level commensurate with the damage administered by other classes during these "run away periods (eg run from insects, called out by Doomshade or At ten rah's whisper, the shackles call, avoid the yellow decal and run to the white circle, run to the east/west, the mad emperor's mez call). Some of these calls can take you out of action for 30 sec, and that can be a lot of dps throughout a raid, esp if you are lucky and called multiple times.
    Yinla and Skuz like this.
  14. Maedhros High King

    So first question is why the heck are you guys raiding on mothers day?
    Second, and not to toot my own horn, but this is our parse from May 2nd, since we don't raid on mothers day, as it should be.
    /GU Combined: Shei Vinitras in 3935s, 3,131.0m @795686 | Maedhros 3,131.0m
    You're saying you're good with a paladin doing 80% of your total on a raid night?
    I mean, I agree, push buttons better. I push buttons pretty well(physically and psychologically), but again, paladin.
    Wizards need help.
    Nerfing necros instead of boosting wizards is backwards.
    Yinla likes this.
  15. Maedhros High King

    you're kidding right? You want to do necro dps as a nuker while you're running away from an emote or silenced for 30 seconds?
    What happens to your increase on events where your name isnt called? You just dominate?
    It sounds like you should just play a necro.
    There are tons of available dot slots now!
  16. Highwizard Augur

    I dont generally see paladins parse that high, and I do not often have a bard usually just a really good druid and chanter. No one is saying they so not need love hense the topic, but I am not for make the wizard OP like mages and necros.

    Just want the wizard more competitive, next expansion we will be at the bottom once the melee get their weapons and aas sorted out.
    Our paladins dont come near me in dps, you guys clear a tad bit faster
  17. Petalonyx Augur

    Wiz could use a manaburn that actually does good damage (at instant speed) and a reduced cooldown wiz teleport.

    Manaburn should be closer to SK harmtouch (or exceed it because manaburn actually burns a lot of important resource AND takes tike to cast).

    Wiz mobility across the ground via the short distance teleports is thematic and it allows more dps while moving.
  18. Brickhaus Augur

    The lack of forethought with wizards from the developers was shown when the developers got rid of the inherent 1-3% critical bonus for wizards and added 3% to the wizard Fury of Magic line. The developers changed all 38 ranks of the wizard FoM line in the data.

    Leaving wizards still at 54% max crit rate with aas while EVERY OTHER CLASS is at 57%. It costs wizards 683 aas to max FoM while every other class only has to spend 301 to max their FoM lines (everyone else has just 30 ranks to buy). All other classes achieve max crit rate at level 100 while wizards have to wait until level 110 (at 100, wizards can get up to 42%).

    You can have all the various SPAs and stacking and what not. I think it's kind of pointless if the developers cannot see the low hanging fruit that wizards can't even crit like other classes. And again, there is zero argument about not having time to spend on fixing because it was just changed. Either they don't see or they don't care to.

    What wizards need is an increase in non-critical damage. The gulf between non-critical hits and critical hits is massive. Since (almost) all wizards corresponding on the boards are raiding wizards, this is of less importance to them since most of the time they are getting group/raid level crit chance enhancers. Hence the focus on various aa timers and percentages to help the burn that you see here and in other threads. Nothing wrong with that, but it ignores the non-raiding side of wizarding.

    I think there are a number of decent ideas here and in other threads. But it's still not going to make anyone new play the class (except as part of a box group) unless you increase non-critical damage for wizards.
    Altreality and Petalonyx like this.
  19. Highwizard Augur

    Not a bad ideal either and yeah it is true most of us on here are raiding wizards we tend to forget about group content.

  20. Swiss Augur

    I'm not familiar with wizards but was curious why wizard synergy would be redundant with a bard?