Cya Everquest

If people fear a lack of distinction between automation and key broadcasting, then don't use 3rd party software at all.

I think the distinctions are more clear than portrayed here as set forth in 'What Constitutes as Cheating?'; but if you're the type to live in fear, then you can choose a "safer" path. (In the same way some individuals fear the coronavirus, those individuals can elect to stay home and no one is there to judge).

Easy decision.

Again, any claim of ISB being affected is hearsay and anecdotal reports. If someone can supply an unedited video or stream where they use ISB with the accompanying black 'Disconnect' screen with time stamps and email then you have better (but not airtight) proof.

Even ISB modifies game memory because it can draw additional hot buttons in the UI that redirect commands to other boxes. Under their rules, ISB is also out in that regard.


Coming from FV and even Xegony prior to that, box crews were a common sight seen during every session I logged in. All it takes is logging in and walking around POK or Guild Hall to see them, and that's only the ones currently idle and not playing.

And I think your 5% is very conservative, but only DPG knows for sure. I had also started thinking about it in terms of salaries at DPG and resources available to work on the game.

I said what I was going to say in my previous msg, but here it is for clarity's sake. "Honestly, just tell folks or make a post that can be changed as needed with what is allowed and what isn't. As we have seen over the past 20 plus years, "Cheating" is a subjective term without a consistent meaning that applies to all programs equally."

It was directed(I thought I was replying to yours, oops) to this post of yours "The easiest solution would be for Daybreak to ban all 3rd party software (including ISB) with the exception of text file readers. It would be a clear cut policy.

Based on the feedback and reactions here, I think this could be a real possibility.

By pushing too far in one direction (rationalizing automation software), Daybreak could push back with even tougher restrictions (to include and affect key broadcasting software)."

It doesn't matter if it is just a text reader, you can get suspended or banned without clarification.

In other words, two things are evident about your viewpoint:

1. Even a text file reader could be easily confused with automation.

2. You will not change your mind even to the extent that their policy is reduced to a text file reader.

The debate about arbitrariness is a smoke show. Herein is the crux of your argument:

It's all or nothing for you: automation or no 3rd party software at all. That's the nuclear option.

The 66k number wasn't people, it was subs I believe. So I'm of a mind the % should be around 30-50% as boxes.

The problem I have though is that same form shows 11.5m in YTD Bookings. I'm not a financial expert but that roughly means 90% of their income is from non sub purchases. Expansions, bags, and potions.

Assuming most expensive way to purchase a sub at 17$ for a krono?

11.5m - (66000 * 17) = Non Sub earnings minimum.
(11500000- (66000 * 17)) / 11500000 = 90%ish yeah?

This is probably their focus for why these servers get made more than driving subs?

Who knows? Not us.

EDIT: + I'm dumb. Forgot to make it annual sub cost not monthly. Looks like that # is just subscription cost?

Are you having problems following what I am saying?
The TOS literally says "You may not develop, share, or use any software, program, macro, or interface that modifies the game play in any way or that gives a user any kind of advantage over other end users, except as expressly authorized by Daybreak."

I am telling you what the TOS says, this is not an opinion or a series of assumptions such as yours. This also draws no distinction between a text reader and automation. There is no list so there is zero express authorization of any kind for 3rd party apps.

Again, what I want is a distinct what is allowed and what isn't even if that list changes over time.

Side note, you don't happen to work for Fox News by chance? They could use a person with your skill set.

Please see 'What Constitutes as Cheating?':

This detection test reported in the other thread would be vain if there was no distinction between automation and ISB. Someone with ISB would be able to respond appropriately:

"What constitutes as cheating" is directly contradicting TOS which was one of my main points. Thanks for the circle back.

You agreed to Daybreak EULA. If you feel that Daybreak is "too arbitrary" (despite - I believe - earnest efforts to define acceptable behavior), then you are free to go play another game or support another studio.

I have over the years, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the thread. Stay on topic please.

Ah, the free market argument hurts.

If you are unhappy with Daybreak, you are not captive audience and you can march with your dollars.

Most EULAs and ToS have some all-encompassing to clause to give them the power to do whatever the heck they want within the laws. This is Daybreak's clause:

This is utter rubbish. Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant, it is happening. And when the GMs are called out on it in Petitions, they just post their rote '3rd party software' 'cheating' cut/paste form emails.
There are people receiving Account Termination after 2 suspensions and other people are receiving three or four 7 day suspensions.
The application of their punishment is a long way from being consistent, seems subjective on which GM picks up your case and in the end looks like some accounts are getting more favourable suspensions while others are getting Banned. And of course, they are above making mistakes so those Petitions end predictably.
Some of the multi-suspensions without bans are people from #1 on server guilds, DP 'pet Guilds' where the GMs raid with them on beta.
If you don't think that is arbitrary or inconsistent or shows possible (blatant?) favouritism then it is only because it doesn't agree with your position.
But then the Internet, and the world at large, is full of Confirmation Bias.

If this is your belief, you are 100% free not to play the game.

Just because automation "should be allowed" (by pro-cheat crowd), doesn't mean the nuclear argument is a valid argument.

Sorry had to step away for an hour. Still catching up.

It's a heated topic, I get it. We have differing opinions, I get it. But DPG has been nice enough to allow these threads to just play out so far. Please let them keep allowing us all to speak by keeping the discussion civil with no personal attacks.

(this was not directed at any particular person)

ISB user would have noticed the INVULNERABLE messages or at the very least no damage being done within a reasonable amount of time (30-60s of confusion imho) and would have stopped. Just my 2c on what they likely would have done.

My thought is that with new ownership/leadership they are trying to minimize the impact of 3rd party abusers with the new TLPs coming out next month. A bunch of non-disruptive players are also getting caught up in this effort. With past TLPs, some players that have come back to the game have expressed frustration at the blatant hacking and monopolization of entire zones by one or two players (Runnyeye and Sirens come to mind) and canceled their subs shortly after coming back. This is probably what they're trying to prevent from happening this time around.

Very possible

It does make me feel better that you have given me your blessing to go somewhere else, but back on topic.
The quote you are referring to states that have the right to change it their TOS, however, they have not changed it. They have the same one that has been around since 2015 and before(I just went back as far as 2015). If they want to quote "cheating" which results in punishment, you don't let CMs contradict your TOS. There is nothing arbitrary about it, it is blatant lying to your customers. Official posts should align with TOS or a published policy AND it should affect everyone equally.

Now before you attempt to put words in my mouth, It seems like most folks here, encompassing your self proclaimed divisions of pro-cheat vs pro anti-cheat(I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but in the real world everything is not black and white), want a fair game with distinct and clear rules. This is not the case when your community manager conflicts with your company's TOS.

"Ah, the free market argument hurts." - I didn't see this as an argument, but more of a last ditch effort by you to try to validate your previous assumptions.