Cya Everquest

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Elemental, Apr 4, 2022.

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  1. Chikkin Augur

    I was thinking about this last weekend, when this thread really took off, and I was posting a lot in here before it seemed talked out.

    A possible solution it seemed to this specific part of the message, is that perhaps they can say:

    Currently:

    ISB v2.78
    Other 3rd party app version 10.2
    and _____ version .8

    are allowed on the following servers: ______ (which I guess would be all non-truebox).

    But before I wrote it out, I figured they probably have no possible way to detect what version of a program you're using. -- I don't have the knowledge to know what they can and can't scan for, or detection methods that are used, etc.

    So seemed like an impossible idea.
  2. Bardy McFly Augur

    They couldn't certify even at a specific version due to the amount of customizability and most allow plugins. Too many variances for those that want to be malicious. Many of these tools are also open source so a specific version could be compiled with modified code.
  3. Eangel Elder

    But they aren't being clear as you suggest from what Accendo said in his post you mentioned. He actually is as vague as possible.
    Example A:"We do not allow the use of any third party programs that modify the game client or its memory data. Additionally, programs that automate movement or actions in the game are not allowed. Software that assists in allowing a few or less people to monopolize an area is not allowed. Using these types of programs will result in a suspension or a ban. Know that THIS IS NOT A COMPLETE LIST of functionalities that can cause actions to be taken against your account and other accounts associated with it." and goes on to say "Lastly, we will not publicly list specific names of approved third-party programs and software as we cannot guarantee that those programs will remain approved in the future."


    Now looking at TOS for Daybreak(I haven't seen one for Darkpaw if there is one) First link is the current TOS and the 2nd is a link from 2015. Notice they are identical.

    https://www.daybreakgames.com/terms-of-service?locale=en_US#section6
    10. Cheating

    Maintaining the integrity of the Daybreak Games is extremely important to us. When an end user obtains an unfair advantage by cheating it can ruin the gaming experience for everybody else. You may not disassemble, reverse engineer, or modify any Daybreak Game(s) software in any way. You may not decrypt or modify any data transmitted between the game software and Daybreak’s game servers. You may not develop, share, or use any software, program, macro, or interface that modifies the game play in any way or that gives a user any kind of advantage over other end users, except as expressly authorized by Daybreak. All forms and methods of cheating, including hacks, bots, aimbots, and duping are expressly forbidden. The sale or exchange of accounts, Virtual Items, Virtual Currency, Krono and/or in-game currency for real world money or monetary value is prohibited, except when purchased from Daybreak or otherwise expressly permitted by Daybreak in its sole and absolute discretion. Daybreak reserves the right to suspend or permanently terminate the account of, and restrict access to the Daybreak Games by, any end user that engages in any form of cheating, or that attempts in any way to disable, circumvent, or tamper with any anti-hacking or anti-cheating components or features of any Daybreak Game(s).

    https://web.archive.org/web/2015063...ybreakgames.com/terms-of-service?locale=en_US
    10. Cheating

    Maintaining the integrity of the Daybreak Games is extremely important to us. When an end user obtains an unfair advantage by cheating it can ruin the gaming experience for everybody else. You may not disassemble, reverse engineer, or modify any Daybreak Game(s) software in any way. You may not decrypt or modify any data transmitted between the game software and Daybreak’s game servers. You may not develop, share, or use any software, program, macro, or interface that modifies the game play in any way or that gives a user any kind of advantage over other end users, except as expressly authorized by Daybreak. All forms and methods of cheating, including hacks, bots, aimbots, and duping are expressly forbidden. The sale or exchange of accounts, Virtual Items, Virtual Currency, Krono and/or in-game currency for real world money or monetary value is prohibited, except when purchased from Daybreak or otherwise expressly permitted by Daybreak in its sole and absolute discretion. Daybreak reserves the right to suspend or permanently terminate the account of, and restrict access to the Daybreak Games by, any end user that engages in any form of cheating, or that attempts in any way to disable, circumvent, or tamper with any anti-hacking or anti-cheating components or features of any Daybreak Game(s).

    Example B:Both mention "You may not develop, share, or use any software, program, macro, or interface that modifies the game play in any way or that gives a user any kind of advantage over other end users, except as expressly authorized by Daybreak."



    https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/express-authorization
    Express authorization means the agreement of the consumer expressed in a form that is evidenced by a written agreement signed by the consumer or by any electronically transferred authorization from the consumer that is stored, recorded, or retained by the supplier, such as a facsimile transmission, e-mail, telephonic, or other electronic means.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/express_authority
    An agent's power to act on behalf of a principal, explicitly granted by an agreement between the agent and principal.


    Looking at a few examples of express authorization, they infer an agreement between the customer and formentioned business.



    To sum it up.

    1. A public post by a Community Manager dictates terms(Example A) that are directly against TOS (Example B). Example B would mean that any third party program we use with EQ is forbiddin since we now have a statement from the company that they will not be releasing a list(See Express Authorization). As well as I.S.B. violates "modifies the game play in any way or that gives a user any kind of advantage over other end users, except as expressly authorized by Daybreak". Technically GINA gives folks an advantage as well.

    2. Discussions between Dreamwaever and Holly have been posted before stating that unattened gameplay as well as warping and other similar hacks were the main offenders as far as constituting cheating which were AFTER 2015 so same TOS as today.

    3. There is zero consistancy(The Public has no idea of what is triggering these suspensions, just speciulation literally any 3rd party software could trigger this) or transparency from Darkpaw on whatever internal policy change as well very little information on what this change was. At this point, most folks playing right now could be suspended or banned all under "Cheating", be it GINA, I.S.B, or the other that won't be named.

    Honestly, just tell folks or make a post that can be changed as needed with what is allowed and what isn't. As we have seen over the past 20 plus years, "Cheating" is a subjective term without a consistent meaning that applies to all programs equally.
    Gormgeous likes this.
  4. Benito EQ player since 2001.

    The easiest solution would be for Daybreak to ban all 3rd party software (including ISB) with the exception of text file readers. It would be a clear cut policy.

    Based on the feedback and reactions here, I think this could be a real possibility.

    By pushing too far in one direction (rationalizing automation software), Daybreak could push back with even tougher restrictions (to include and affect key broadcasting software).
    Bernel likes this.
  5. Bardy McFly Augur

    This would absolutely kill the Rizlona server. I'd wager it's at least a 10 to 1 of players that box with tools there versus players that just box one toon with no tools and alt-tabbing. I won't say the latter player doesn't exist on that server, but it's probably incredibly rare.

    We're back to separating the communities based on preferred playstyle, however it is deemed by DPG as the best way to do so.
  6. Benito EQ player since 2001.

    If people are having a hard time distinguishing automation from key broadcasting, it is very possible that Daybreak could elect to enforce a policy where "none of the above" are allowed.
  7. Bardy McFly Augur

    Just for clarity, there are players on that server that box their entire own raids. Not just one person doing it. We're talking 30+ accounts each. Even if those accounts are funded by Krono, those Krono still originate with DPG and are purchased by someone, somewhere with real money. Your solution is basically asking DPG to throw all of that revenue away. And we're only talking one server. 3rd party program use is widespread across all servers, even if it is not evident to someone that is not familiar with their use.

    Case in point - there was that person on one of these threads that has been playing for years on Vox with I think 48 accounts. They just received a suspension and that person threatened a chargeback. They also said they play like me, buying Krono and funding their own accounts. They paid a year in advance for all of those accounts. There are quite a few players out there that prefer to play like this.
  8. Benito EQ player since 2001.

    It's up to Daybreak.

    If there's drama in understanding the current policy (automation bad, key broadcasting OK), the easiest-to-understand policy would be to ban all 3rd party software affecting the game. Text file readers exist independently of the game so the distinction is not nearly as harrowing.
  9. Bernel Augur

    I agree this would be a better policy, however, it would first require game changes that make it more solo-able. Not necessarily that a single character can do everything, but that there is an EQ-specific way to control multiple characters. They can't just say people can't use ISB anymore and expect those ISB 6-boxers to switch to alt-tabbing between 6 separate windows. But I think it would be healthier for the game long-term for them to take this approach. Have the EQ team come up with ways for players to play in the reality of 2022 EQ where populations are low and groups are hard to come by. Maybe that's more mercs, EQ-controlled alts, or something else, but EQ itself needs to find a way for players to be able to play EQ without having to turn to external tools.
    Chikkin likes this.
  10. Bardy McFly Augur

    That player did not use automation. They said they only used ISB. Also keep in mind DPG's policy also states that a single person cannot monopolize content in the game, so in that regard they can suspend or ban anyone they want that boxes even without any tools being involved.
  11. Benito EQ player since 2001.

    "Just trust me, bro."

    You can't trust hearsay or anecdotal reports on the internet.
  12. Bardy McFly Augur

    It would be so, so much easier for them to just create a "Boxing Preferred" Live server and tell people that want to play that way "go there", either by will or by force.
  13. Bardy McFly Augur

    I do hear you. DPG could easily verify that on their end, just repeating what they said.
  14. Eangel Elder

    I wanted to repeat this again for you since you may have missed it or didn't read it carefully. I went ahead and made the snips(or pertinent info) bold, italicized and underlined so you would have a focal point.

    "You may not decrypt or modify any data transmitted between the game software and Daybreak’s game servers. You may not develop, share, or use any software, program, macro, or interface that modifies the game play in any way or that gives a user any kind of advantage over other end users, except as expressly authorized by Daybreak."

    Currently, there is NO list of expressly authorized applications.That means no one other than a representative from Darkpaw can say what is allowed and what isn't. Since Darkpaw has not expressly authorized any applications, your assumptions are speculation at best. Since the list isn't being shared, you could get suspended or banned for using anything that gives you any kind of advantage over other end users.
    Gormgeous likes this.
  15. Gormgeous Elder

    They obviously won't release the stats.

    Am I the only one though that feels like if they started banning for any third party use including ISB, there'd be less than half the player population left and probably less than 20% of the sub total?

    I don't play on live now but was on FV a few years ago. It feels like not boxing with ISB or other options is the exception, not the norm?

    What's your anecdotal take on percentages?
  16. Bernel Augur

    There's still the problem of the game not being really playable with only one character. Lots of people prefer to play solo without grouping. In the old days it was possible to do drive-by grouping by joining random camps in popular zones, but that's not really feasible anymore. Unless you are prepared to devote hours to grouping--both finding a group and sticking it out--grouping isn't really all that feasible.

    It sounds like you actually like boxing itself--that is, the "game" of getting multiple characters working together. That's great! It's like how some people like riding a unicycle, juggling balls, and spinning plates at the same time. But not everyone likes the challenge of boxing. Just like you enjoy playing EQ solo, so do other people. They just don't want to have to box to do it. It would be nice if EQ itself had a way that people could play one character and make meaningful progress. They might not be as efficient as a 6-boxer, but that's fine. Playing solo with a merc is pretty feasible up until 70 or 80. It seems like they already have the start of what people want. Just expand a bit more on that and both the solo non-boxers and boxers would be happy.
  17. Benito EQ player since 2001.


    So you're telling everyone not to use any 3rd party software?

    That's fine with me and that's your prerogative.
  18. Gormgeous Elder


    This is what I was talking about with the ISB conversation few pages back. Someone was jumping on me for saying ISB is a valid reason to catch a ban if they decided it was with no change to the rules.
  19. Eangel Elder

    My theory is that TLP income has finally broke a point where it is financially justifiable to cull 3rd party software users. Someone a while back in these past threads that they are trying to walk a fine line between essentially both user-bases. I think it might have started with that idea, but to me, it seems like the suspensions are being becoming more prevalent in relation to the success of current TLPs after LJ and RF. Nostalgia is a powerful thing as the EQ franchise keeps proving with getting folks to actually pay to start over... over and over again.
  20. Truetotheblue Augur

    I think it's likely lower than the boxing community wants to believe. I'm not going to try to take a guess. But one thing I think that is important for anyone to consider, regardless of where you sit on the issue, is the cost.

    According to the presentation when EG7 took over they had about 66K members for EverQuest. Let's say 5% of that is boxers. That's 3300 members. If they're paying the rock bottom price of a year sub at 10$ per month those generate $33000 a month on base sub (this is a hypothetical, please don't spin off the Krono debate held on these forums so many times). Annually that's 396k$, according to Zip recruiter the average game dev salary in SD is about 100k. So that 5% loss could be almost 4 devs. It impacts everyone, regardless of where you sit on boxing.
    Chikkin and Bardy McFly like this.
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