current pally AA and Spells meta for solo/group/raid

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by ShammiesFTW, Apr 11, 2022.

  1. ShammiesFTW New Member

    Hello!
    Ive tried looking this question in the past forums, but I didnt find anything really past 2017. I was wondering if any Pallys out there could catch me up on whats good for line ups being molo/group/raid? Im a returning player ands trying to refresh on whats current, I would greatly appreciate any feedback on this. I know raids and such are circumstantial on the fight and roles.
    Thanks again for any time spent answering
  2. Qimble Augur

    At max level my "default" spell set looks something like:
    Peservation
    Burst
    Composite
    Protective
    Upbraid
    Ardent
    Parlay
    Stance
    Crush
    Valiant
    Confluent
    Culpability
    +1 (I rotate a lot of stuff through the last slot depending on what I'm doing)
  3. Wulfhere Augur

    Since the friendly target patch, the Grief line should be obsolete in favor of the Burst line. Why are you spending a spell gem on Culpability (Grief) when it will be on cool down for 2.5 minutes? Memorizing a 2nd Burst spell serves far better, right?

    [62364/10902] Burst of Dawnbreak
    Classes: PAL/118
    Skill: Alteration
    Mana: 4169
    Target: Single Ally or TT
    Range: 200'
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Focusable: Yes
    Casting: 0.25s, Recast: 12s, Rest: 3s
    1: Increase Current HP by 20881

    [62398/10938] Culpability
    Classes: PAL/119
    Skill: Alteration
    Mana: 3243
    Target: Self
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Focusable: Yes
    Casting: 0.25s, Recast: 2.5m, Rest: 0.5s
    1: Increase Current HP by 25235 (If HP Below 15 Percent)
    2: Increase Current HP by 21029 (If HP Between 15 and 25 Percent)
    3: Increase Current HP by 17526 (If HP Between 25 and 35 Percent)
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  4. Szilent Augur

    because of this bit, probably
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  5. Qimble Augur

    Culpability saves me like a mini-lay on hands. Burst saves someone else. The 3 second lockout makes burst too dangerous to use to help patch heal myself during high-incoming damage moments. If I was gonna drop one I would drop Burst. That 3 second lockout is absolutely devastating, but I have yet to find a spell that can fill in for the situations where I use burst.

    I dunno about you, but for many modern raids I find myself throwing a couple key but squishy people on the bottom of extended target so I can emergency heal them if they get unlucky with a tick / haunt / etc.
  6. Wulfhere Augur

    Yeah, I do agree and it's just more evidence that the spell engine is far too slow for the modern intensity of 1-2 second lethal combat intervals.

    The spell timers have not aged well, especially for rest time and casting time. The demand for instant cast spells grows louder each year.

    Most painful is the 6 second spell tick interval for heal-over-time spells. 6 seconds is doubly devastating, as you say, and so most players forego casting them and even buff blocking them (for healer mercs). HoT spells need to heal to full each tick, or heal to 50% and have their tick reduced to say 3 seconds, to be meaningful. As ridiculous as that sounds, that's how badly modern combat is tuned.

    It would seem that you might want use the Light heal line, even though it shares a timer with Protective, because it favorably balances your concerns about Burst. Perhaps the 3s rest time makes Burst obsolete in favor of Light? Protective is still alternatively usable whenever its 1s casting time is not going to be interrupted (or too late).

    [62331/10907] Raptured Light
    Classes: PAL/117
    Skill: Alteration
    Mana: 1846
    Target: Single Ally or TT
    Range: 200'
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Focusable: Yes
    Casting: 0.5s, Recast: 5.5s, Timer: 9, Rest: 1.5s
    1: Increase Current HP by 10215
  7. Qimble Augur

    I might try putting that one in my flex slot and testing it next week. I'll have to write a GINA trigger for protective fading to see how it impacts the uptime on that. Smaller heal than burst so less useful some situations but no lockout so might be more generally useful.
  8. Lubianx Augur

    I am assuming that this a group line up with Ardent and Confluent in there and no Splash and Brilliant Acquittal
  9. Allayna Augur

    The following 6 spell gems pretty much don't change for me and is a good mix of self tanking survival, other tanking survival, stun/aggro, and group healing. These 6 gems are my spam spells.

    1: Force of Generosity
    2: Valiant Deterrence
    3: Composite Force
    4: Burst of Dawnbreak
    5: Force of the Umbra
    6: Protective Revelation

    Now if you find this gets you too many mobs, you can move Valiant around in the order, in slot 1, you'll have them all and die, in 2, you have most on incoming and other tanks can peel. While in slot 3 it keeps you on the hate list of everything but you won't likely have more than 1, while keeping you above random healers/dps.

    My spam key which is tied to those 6 gems also looks like this:

    /disc Repudiate
    /alt activate 3826 - <Force of Disruption>
    /alt activate 2029 - <Vanquish the Fallen>

    Now, the raid force I belong with now is pretty strict on anything unnecessary being on any mob due to the debuff slot limitation of 96.

    So in raid:

    7: Crush of the Umbra
    8: Brell's Tenacious Barrier
    9: Burst of Wakening or swing slot, could be a group heal or an undead nuke, just depends on the raid target or group content
    10: Brilliant Acquittal
    11: Preservation of the Basilic
    12: Adamant Stance
    13: Splash of Repentance

    With that set up, I switch very little between events, between group, solo, raid...

    I advise you also have a second hotkey aside from the spam one that has the following:

    /doability 1
    /cast 7

    That's the flash aggro key where you have /doability 1 set to taunt, and gem 7 is a crush. You could also add in /alt activate 10392 but I don't have mine tied into a hotkey like that. I only use crushes because of the force I raid with, in group content gem 7 and gem 9 change to Parlay for Honor and Ardent Audacity because I like hate over time and debuffing mobs as well.

    If people have specific questions about how to pally, disc rotation, healing burns, dps burns, undead, anything, I'm available on Bristlebane now under the name Aallayna, shoot me an email or a PM here on the boards and I'll answer them.

    Attached below is the paladin GINA package I created, no raid triggers, just pally.
    https://www.mediafire.com/file/jxk5uaxbns1zgs5/Paladin.gtp/file
  10. Qimble Augur


    Ardent goes out for brilliant for fights where I need to cure, splash into the flex spot. I don't mem splash outside of specific fights. Ardent stays in for fights where I don't need to twincast splash. The extra non-damaging hate over time is really nice for some fights depending on raid comp / event.
  11. Qimble Augur

    Wrote up a GINA trigger for protective and had it running for anni raid and a few ToL mission runs. I guess I could swap in Raptured light but it seems like I would rarely be able to use it, protective just doesn't last long enough during the moments where I might want to throw a quick heal to an ally. I think I'd be more likely to use Soothing Touch.
  12. Nightops Augur

    I'm always amazed at how many paladins play with poorly designed spell bars.

    A well played paladin who understands how to heal can save countless people from dying during each event. Keep 2 bursts and the grief line on your spell bar at all times. Use your Extended target box wisely and spot heal. Ideally you will constantly be casting your Brilliant nuke line also with the intent to have your twincast primed for your next heal.

    Composite spell line for paladins has always been a waste. In raids, unless something in the event requires a stun or is stunnable, keeping stuns in your line-up is also a huge waste. Even in the group game, stuns are not that beneficial unless your character is weak in development of AA, augs, levels, or gear. Stuns can be helpful after expansion releases until your character gets caught up to the expected standard.
    Thancra likes this.
  13. Qimble Augur

    Composite is an instant cast group heal of decent size, I am surprised you don't see the value in that. In my experience outside of splash, brilliant almost always just wound up being a bunch of overheal. Keeping it "primed" would mean not using protective or valiant which seems pretty bad if you're tanking, seems to me upbraid is the better nuke to use since it provides an immediate heal and if you're not tanking damage should be coming in steady enough for it to be relevant whenever it lands.

    re:stuns I generally agree. I don't use them unless it's single pulls on stunnable content.

    re: 2 bursts. Ew, that would mean your spell bars are locked out for a substantial portion of the raid. Seems less than ideal. I guess if you're a healadin assigned to patch heal group / raid rather than tank it could make sense.
  14. Shakara Augur


    I find this to be an interesting point. Makes me think that HoTs should be coded more like lava where the application of healing happens every second. I do not know what kind of coding that would take but i agree that HP regen and HoTs are just irrelevant when mobs can kill you in less than 6 seconds. Another thing I wonder is if they could make Paladin healing similar to SK healing where you could cast a buff on yourself or others that healed every time you swung a weapon or cast a spell. Kind of like the Mark line.

    I also feel instead of HoTs they could lean more into the preservation line. Up the hit count and let it proc on every hit. Paladins have a lot of abilities that synergize with incoming healing and the preservation line could sever as the foundation for that type of playstyle.
  15. Allayna Augur

    Weird stance to take and then claim to load 2 bursts and grief.

    Stuns are invaluable, you're all leaving a lot of healing/aggro/mitigation on the table if you aren't stunning. Healing Light XXXII is tied to stun usage. In a 3 target raid night, healing light proc'd 147 times, was the second highest heal cast for me. Higher than any active spell gem like burst or valiant or composite alone. I should also note - it was a 147 casts x 6 people for 200 range. Below is my parsed healing for that raid night for an example, I cut it after 4 heals because of the length of the post.

    Aallayna

    Splash of Repentance Rk. III

    Heal
    48,431,888

    Overheal
    529,173,336

    # Heals
    7,160

    Max Heal
    257,285

    Average Heal
    6,764

    Healing Light XXXII

    Heal
    9,551,225

    Overheal
    115,901,250

    # Heals
    837

    Max Heal
    259,477

    Average Heal
    11,411

    Burst of Dawnbreak Rk. III

    Heal
    7,837,359

    Overheal
    35,769,566

    # Heals
    159

    Max Heal
    335,214

    Average Heal
    49,291

    Valiant Healing IV Caza

    Heal
    7,329,737

    Overheal
    15,322,877

    # Heals
    312

    Max Heal
    151,688

    Average Heal
    23,492


    Everyone has a playstyle I suppose, just offering my assistance/experience for any who have questions.
    Wulfhere likes this.
  16. Qimble Augur



    147 "casts" doesn't seem that great for 2 spell gems over 3 targets, but it really depends on what targets they were / what your role was / how solid your guilds DPS performance was / etc. Impossible to tell without the additional context. My main problem with relying on stuns is that they're (from what I could find last time I looked it up) less threat than crushes and not guaranteed to heal like valiant. For me the trade off just isn't worth it outside of stunnable content.
  17. Wulfhere Augur

    I was thinking the same thing. If he's alternating bursts then he's only casting 1 spell every 3.25 seconds at best. Just say no to that.

    Given these spells:

    Burst of Wakening
    Casting: 0.25s, Recast: 12s, Rest: 3s
    1: Increase Current HP by 17218

    Burst of Dawnbreak
    Casting: 0.25s, Recast: 12s, Rest: 3s
    1: Increase Current HP by 20881

    Raptured Light
    Casting: 0.5s, Recast: 5.5s, Timer: 9, Rest: 1.5s
    1: Increase Current HP by 10215

    Protective Revelation
    Casting: 1s, Recast: 5s, Timer: 9, Rest: 1.5s
    1: Increase Current HP by 10187
    Protective Revelation Guard
    1: Absorb Melee Damage: 15%, Total: 109700

    Soothing Touch
    Casting: 3.75s, Recast: 1.5s, Rest: 1.5s
    1: Increase Current HP by 16255


    Base healing rates for 2 spell casts:

    Burst + Burst
    38099 / 6.5sec = 5861 HP/S (base)

    Light + Burst
    31096 / 5.25sec = 5923 HP/S (base)

    Protective + Burst
    31068 / 5.75sec = 5403 HP/S (base) + 15000 damage absorb (i.e just one 100k hit)

    Touch + Touch
    32510 / 10.5sec = 3096 HP/S (base)

    Light + Touch
    26470 / 7.25sec = 3651 HP/S (base)

    Burst + Touch
    37136 / 8.5sec = 4368 HP/S (base)

    I think it's pretty easy to see that memorizing Touch is a bad choice and 2x Burst is also weak. Light + Burst is the quickest healing delivery (2.25sec) when urgency matters most. Protective + Burst is the strongest combination because of the guard.
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  18. Wulfhere Augur

    Timer 5 is the only worthwhile Crush for +hate because it's double the amount on the Timer 5 stun (and crush can be twin cast with Bifold click).

    Otherwise, Timer 4 Stun and other sources of class stun can enable Healing Light to really shine. Listed in order of importance and healing returns:
    1. Force of Disruption / Divine Stun / Divine Persecution AA
    2. Timer 4 stun
    3. Blunted Blade Strike (arguably #1)
    4. Composite Force
    5. Beacon of the Righteous
    6. Hallowed Lodestar
    7. Timer 3 stun + HoT
    8. Timer 6 Lesson stun
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  19. Nightops Augur


    Sorry, but you're assuming a repeating healing rotation with these numbers when you put it in comparison of HP/S. I use my bursts to spot heal on tanks or critical people. When they get agro or draw two mobs once the spawn wave goes active, I want the HIGHEST amount of heals possible.

    If you do Light then burst, your first (and most critical heal) is 50% less hps delivered and .25s slower. Granted your second heal cast will land faster by 1.25s but again, I believe the first heal spell to land to be much more critical then the 2nd.

    If you do Burst and then light, your hps delivered is nearly 40% less on your second heal (which is delivered .25s slower too). Yes, you are right, anything after the 2nd spell would be more to the players choice and land faster with burst/light combo. But for me, I'm not there to keep a healing rotation up on an off-tank. Over the years, if that becomes my job in the middle of a raid event, we are closer to a wipe then recovery.
    ---------------

    Using stuns for the proc of Healing light seems like a waste to me also. Yes your stats prove it heals a lot and proc'd 147 times. How many stuns did you have to cast to get those 147 procs? Is it a 20% proc rate like the AA description says? Unfortunately, its limited to group and overall a much smaller amount of hps are delivered to the player which actually needs the healing. If the mobs are not stunnable, then your pushing out a ton of mana for very little effect. Which leads me to the issue with Composite Stun. Extremely high mana cost for an instant cast group heal. I'm sorry, but it's just not worth it because we have HoP, LoH, or GoL to chose from depending on need. Or Reflexive if we are actively attacking a target.
    ----------------

    As for my earlier comment about using Brilliant line to "prime" a twincast heal. I guess peeps would know how to use it too and I was not directly explaining it clearly. In every raid, I know when to expect an off-tank to need an emergency heal. Maybe its from spawned adds who take a few seconds to go active, maybe its because a mob does an AE on death, maybe its a repeating timer; whatever the cause, you know most of the time. Sooo.... before that potential need happens, you cast your brilliant nuke ~6sec before and hold off casting anything with a heal until you see a need for your Burst. If for some chance the burst isn't needed, then continue casting whatever.

    With current hps on knights nearing 600k (or over depending on auras); and raid off-tank mobs max hitting 100k per, those hps still go fast but the healing needed to replace them is even more critical. That's why I use 2 bursts because you want the highest value delivered the fastest. We are not in the profession of sustained healing. And no.... Raptured Light is not going to sustain a tank by itself no matter what the rest or recast timers are.
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  20. Nightops Augur


    If I'm tanking, no i'm not saving my 'primed twincast' for my next burst heal when I'm below xx% hps. As my words in my first post talk about spot healing on ETW. Two completely different situations. I do cast other spells with healing components, however, I stop casting those and prime a twincast before certain situations. Such situations are before add waves go active, before exploding mobs die, before timed AEs go off.

    And no, spell bars being locked is nearly never a problem. As I pointed out in the previous post. Burst+Burst is actually faster by .25sec then Burst+Light and delivers ~40% more hps on the 2nd heal (old burst 17.2k vs light 10.2k). Any heals after the 2nd spell will be slower for the burst x2, but users preference here imo. I feel our roles are not to maintain a healing cycle. Paladins perform best when in a spot emergency heal situation when compared to sustained healing.
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