Shaman or Bard through the expansions?

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Arclyte, Feb 13, 2022.

  1. Wulfhere Augur

    I'm curious for an example? I'm guessing a strong tanking/healing requirement, because that's the only thing my shaman can do better then my bard. That and making potions.
  2. HoodenShuklak Augur

    Bards are such bad soloers (post dirge RIP in peace) that you just don't even do it because they are such good groupers. Shamans on the other hand can solo very well due to their extreme slows and mana efficiency plus heals. I'm not sure how long that lasts since I never tried (gates mobs tend to hit hard) but SHM is peak solo prowess in the kunark/velious era.
  3. a_librarian Augur

    Raid geared shaman can do well in gates against rootable mobs. Root rot or summon tanking is both pretty efficient with the really low mob HP. A lot of the nameds that matter are root immune and hit way too hard at 65, but you could probably kill some if you can outspeed them significantly and got lucky. If you try to face tank them they will just kill you.

    Omens soloing feels way better than trilogy era to be honest. Mob and especially nameds damage is way lower than Gates. Lots of stuff is rootable which lets you control some really ridiculous situations. You get so much efficiency from clickies and AA it's insane.

    The dependence on raid gear is really high, so if you are group geared then I agree kunark/velious is probably the peak. During those eras you can just get your essential spells, put on barbed ringmail and be reasonably strong relative to what you're fighting.
  4. Shakara Augur

    Bard DPS acutally falls off after TBS and bard utility goes through the roof. Overhaste does stagnate but the new "overhaste" songs get flurry and triple attack chance added onto them starting in HoT. Bards in UF get AoE mez. There is also Dissonant chord (aggro lock), crit chance healing, Healing focus, and many other things.
  5. Shakara Augur


    Soloing is complicated because many classes can solo effectively if they use correct strats. Bards biggest weakness solo is damage mitigation. You can circumvent a lot of this by soloing in areas you can charm. By charming you can take no damage and do an extraordinary amount of DPS at 0 resource cost. Once you get mercs you don't even need charm and can steamroll most current era zones with just /melody.
    code-zero likes this.
  6. Wulfhere Augur

    Sorry I can't agree with your preposterous statement on face value. A well played bard is good at most every feat, including soloing for experience, and I have done them over the years (pbae swarm, charm swarm, tgae swarm).

    That said, pbae swarm has been dead long before TLP. I doubt that the tgae (dirge) swarm nerf impacted TLP for lack of a mana pool from 43 to 75, after which most players migrate to a new TLP and do 1-50 all over again.

    Charm swarming is still very effective outside of the charm-less era of RoK and SoL. I believe that the Dev's 20 year old rationale to not give bards a charm upgrade between 51-63 should get fixed with a new song to cover that gap.
  7. HoodenShuklak Augur

    I've played a bard a lot and their solo relative to grouping would be a serious personal choice. It's incredibly slow and boring to dot or charm kite when you can join a good group and make them fantastic and mow mobs down.

    There's no need to even mention swarming with dots or dd's because that's not an option. When dirge was broke for a couple years recently it was amazing and the only time you could justify soloing.

    By no means do I think bards cannot solo... it's just they are so utterly poor at soloing relative to their group strength.
    Skewert likes this.
  8. Shakara Augur

    But that's true about every class in the game except maybe necro. Soloing is just less efficient around the board by design. In other words that is not a useful metric for determining a classes success in the solo game.
    Wulfhere likes this.
  9. Poydras Augur

    But a class who's primary role is making others classes better at their roles will clearly lose the most when they aren't in a group. Bards can't even benefit from their own mana regen songs, and can do hardly anything to strengthen their own charmed pet. And if we're talking early eras then it's a *really* big difference. And group desirability isn't even so great then either.

    Yes, daybreak has gone out of their way to boost group xp and restrict everyone's ability to solo, especially as expansions go on. But personally I still like to camp stuff sometimes just for fun, or when I don't have time for grouping, or kill tough mobs from prior eras. So it's still relevant to me. Also I guess I avoid any kind of soloing that involves running in circles. Past life as a wizard. shudder.
  10. HoodenShuklak Augur

    The metric is only useful in relative terms. Outside of a charm pet, adding a bard to a group can take any group to a higher level and, relative to other classes, you get a lot more than +1. Meanwhile, if the bard solo's, they're probably just average all in all, and possibly even below average in dungeons.

    Also, I'd wager that druids are better solo than in groups. No group, outside of some niche scenario, really wants a druid over a shaman or cleric until maybe deep into EQ's timeline. Druids are taking into groups that are willing to settle.
    Skewert likes this.
  11. Triconix Augur

    That's because most players don't want to accept druids for what they are: DPS.

    They are better at dpsing than they are at healing. They are the DPS priest of the three and should be treated as such. Anyone who treats a druid as a healer first dps second is bad.
  12. HoodenShuklak Augur

    Even as a DPS they are so poor and, even worse, the competition is now even more plentiful. Their specialty of powerful dots just doesn't synergize at all with modern tlp dps-on-steroids. It's a whole other topic I've brought up in the past - druids need serious tweaking for modern tlps.
  13. Triconix Augur

    I'd argue that melee need to be tweaked down, rather than more classes getting boosted even more. There is literally zero reason melee have out of era passive dps AAs retrograded to them on TLPs. It's causing major balance issues.

    Early era Druid nukes are nearly as powerful and efficient as the best nuking classes and they get the benefit of having dots, more utility, heals, etc. Druids in Kunark are enc-lite in zones like Chardok for charm pets and will bring just as much, if not more, dps than nearly any class in the best exp zone in that era. Then they can charm in the best exp zone(s) in POP. Druids are phenomenal, if properly utilized, in two of the most popular expansions in the most popular time periods of a TLP (classic-POP). Their single biggest downfall is their mana struggles.

    Once you get past the terribly balanced 70s era - which affects all casters - druids will just continue to grow more powerful as their dots become nasty, competing with the top dps classes in the game.

    Most people simply don't know how to properly utilize a druid.
    Wulfhere likes this.
  14. Shakara Augur


    I think you missed my point on what i was trying to say. the difference in power between a classes solo ability and their group ability doesn't speak much to how effectively they solo compared to other classes. For instance. SKs are very good in groups and really shine in groups compared to solo with their strong aggro abilties and immaculate damage mitigation. Does this mean they are bad soloers? No SKs are quite capable soloes and can often take out big mobs that most other classes cant even fathom approaching.
  15. Shakara Augur

    I think this is just people not understanding how to solo on a bard. I have soloed on a bard from Classic-SoD and I have felt more powerful solo than just about anyone. Bard charm when soloing is actually just much better than enchanter charm. In addition you have all the pulling tools so you can pick your fights much better than other solo classes. You have tons of escape tools so you are very safe when solo. All of this comes nearly no resource cost. Meaning you can solo with almost no downtime. Sure you can't take on the biggest baddest named by yourself but you really don't need to. Just find a hunting ground with little peons and mow them down like wheat.
    Wulfhere and code-zero like this.
  16. Aeonblade Very Hungry Vah Shir

    This was my first time playing a shaman (on mischief) and I gotta say, after playing a Druid for over 20 years, I regret not making a shaman sooner.
    Skewert, HoodenShuklak and Maara like this.
  17. Fluid Augur

    Hey! How did Druids get into the conversation?
  18. JustAnotherOpinion Augur

    I need help trying to decide which class I should box with my Shaman on the upcoming TLP server. The Shaman is and will forever be my main, so the box needs to compliment him in someway. When Norrath sees my Shaman, they should always see my box because the two are obviously going to be best friends forever. :D

    I have never boxed in EQ. Here is my list.

    Shaman + Magician
    Shaman + Necromancer = Hard Epic
    Shaman + Wizard = Hard epic
    Shaman + Cleric
    Shaman + Druid
    Shaman + Ranger
    Shaman + Shadowknight = Hard epic

    My top priorities are group content and raid content. I want both classes to be desirable in groups. If one class is out of group, I want the other class to be able contribute to the group content. Both classes should be welcome on a raid, even if one class plays a limited role. I want both classes to have their epics, so Necromancer, Shadowknight, and Wizard might be out of the running.

    I am leaning towards Shaman and Cleric for the ultra group and raid love. What are you opinions?
  19. Triconix Augur

    Sham + any melee makes the most sense as a sham compliments melee the best. A sham + cleric in a group for group content is a waste of a spot. A sham + cleric in a raids would be a pretty terrible thing to box seeing how they shouldn't be in the same group. That means you need to maintain two groups vs one while dealing with outside group buffing and other responsibilities.

    Either sham + monk or sham + sk is going to be your most solid duo for early expansions with sham + sk continually getting stronger and stronger and sham + monk getting weaker as time passes since the monk will able to be less tank efficient the further you go.There's also absolutely nothing wrong with sham + any of the three tank archetypes. Just find some dps which is a dime a dozen and off you go.

    Sham + rog will be tank dependent as will sham + ber. Sham + bard is the ultimate adps melee group foundation for both group content and raids, but you will need to find a tank in group content. Sham + bst is solid, but lots of their stuff overlaps early on so it's kind of redundant and a waste if you're trying to maximize potential with two chars. Sham + Ranger is solid. They are probably one of the most underrated tanks in the early going.
    Skewert and code-zero like this.
  20. code-zero Augur

    Like Triconix said, SHM/CLR is just an awful combination. The only thing you came up with in your combo's that's viable is SHM/SK
    Skewert likes this.