Shaman or Bard through the expansions?

Outside of direct heals, I can't think of anything that Shaman would be exponentially better than Bard. Marginally better in a lot of ways. Marginally worse in a lot of ways... and those ways fluctuate by era... and by gear level.

Trying to say which is better overall isn't reasonable. Which is better: cars or pizza? Really depends on if you're trying to go somewhere or if you're hungry.

Well according to my math, being exponentially better at one thing while being a wash at everything else would still amount to exponentially better overall. But he specifically said "more powerful", which I agree with, which slants the opinion to certain abilities. Of course it depends on what you consider important and what else you have (like a cleric/chanter/5-box-team in your back pocket, or if you just freaking looove to kite around in outdoor zones or pull for xp groups all day). But shamans have much better slow, better haste, big hp buff, higher dps, the best mana regen in the game. Soloing it's no contest, boxing by one's self: no contest. For grouping, I also think no contest. As a shaman, you need to add some melees and you're off killing. as a bard, you need to add a balanced group... For raiding: finally a contest with similar roles more or less. I give that one to the bard personally, but being popular filling in some raid role does not feel "powerful" to me I guess.

It's very odd, having played a bard main for around 20 years the one player class that seems to have any animus at all toward bards has always been shaman. For some time I couldn't figure why if there was a shaman in the group that they'd do something uncalled for like buffing me in the middle of a pull or spamming group chat with twist advice but I finally had to conclude that some dedicated shaman for whatever reason just didn't like the bard class.

3/4 of those are self buffs and 2/4 come in at end game. Leveling up bards are a big deal for mana regen especially for hybrids who really struggle with mana for the first 60-70 levels.

Thats a little misleading. In terms of raw numbers yes shamans look more powerful on paper. You have big slow, decent heal, big dots, and strong buffs, but that power is much more heavily gated. Shamans have very large mana costs and require much more down time than a bard, so for fighting a big baddie yes you going to want that shaman power, but during your leveling and AA grind bards are going to outperform shaman in most of their rolls.

This is just not accurate. Bards are especially good in classic for leveling as they are one of the few classes that is not gear dependent and supplies mana regen. Even group with enchanters bards are still top-tier picks. Tanks while scares do have suitable replacements (Enchanter pets, Rangers, Monks), Healers while vital are quite common, but mana regen is rare and often a bottleneck for xp for classic groups.

The title of this thread is "through the expansions" so kinda weird that your argument is based on what spells are only available in classic. And self mana regen is mana regen.

Shaman vs bard is an odd comparison as their roles are different. Shaman, first and foremost, is a healer through progression. Bard is not. Bard is a fine class and very versatile. A closer comparison for a bard is enchanter though.

As far as adps, no one will turn down either. Melee will jump to have both. Overhaste gets somewhat less important as melee get their overhaste clickies. The biggest problem with bards, until they get the longer duration buffs (2.0,PoTime/Tacvi clickies) at least, is their adps suffers while doing crowd control/slowing (or are deaded on inc) and there are annoying gaps in their mez levels in some expansions.

Right now, in the 70's era, if I had to choose between bard or shaman for my raid group, I'd go with a shaman. Champion + shaman epic 2.0 is just too good. Puma doesn't hurt either. Most shaman become buffbots later on as the class is undeniably powerful, but also tedious.

Well because the context of that statement was in regards to leveling and grouping early on. Mana regen in Classic-Velious is the main thing bards are known for in groups.

"More powerful" isn't really any different than "better" in this context. And there are definitely some things that bards are "exponentially" better at than shaman, but they weren't as interesting as "big heals" so I omitted them
* Bards can run an order of magnitude faster than Shaman
* Bards can cast infinitely better than Shaman while moving (versatility on the battlefield)
* Bards can pull exponentially better than Shaman
* Bards can grant invulnerability better than Shaman
* ...the list goes on

For your other list
* Shamans have marginally better slow... 55% vs 75%
* Bards have marginally better haste... 85% vs 60%
* Better DPS will be situational. In some scenarios Shaman will have higher DPS, in others it will be Bards.
* Soloing... Bards are exponentially better at the things they can solo and Shaman are exponentially better on the things Bards can't. As a Bard, I can't think of many things that are possible for me to solo that I couldn't do significantly faster/more efficiently than a Shaman. There are definitely some things that I can't solo that a Shaman can, though.
* As a Bard, you only need a partner or two and you're already a balanced group... anything else you add is just icing. Same for Shaman. I'd call that one a wash.

Edit: restored omitted portion of quote, I was trying to minimize the size or the text, not intentionally omit salient points

That's the whole point though. As I said in that sentence you inconveniently omitted, power is disproportionately based on key abilities. I provided a list of abilities not to argue with quantity, but because those were key to killing stuff in EQ. All the time. You don't need to run fast very often, and running whatever percent faster doesn't net you anything. (You know what's faster than bard speed though? Gating.) And for that matter same with pulling, in the occasions it's even needed/possible, it only needs to be good enough.

Of course it's a matter of opinion, as I also said. But it's not just my opinion. Claiming a bard makes for a better small group than a shaman though, puts you in a minority for sure. I have played both classes as mains, and others. A few pages ago someone was all triggered by negative things I said about shamans on raids. This isn't a contest about who has the largest male organ. They're just options to compare for the next TLP.

It seems to have been states in some of the previous posts, but from my experience playing both on different TLP's, it boils down to:

Group play:
Bards - you are the puller, sometimes CC, and mana regen source. This pretty much remains constant throughout classic and beyond. Mana regen gets less important as longer clarity spells, alternate mana regen type buffs become available (druid skin, Bst crack), and more classes get their own mana regen type spells. In classic, you will get asked to pull, even though all you do is facepull and try to lull a few mobs or get crafty with mez so pulls come in staggered. Might as well ask the rogue to pull, and stay with the group singing mana regen. A good bard is always on the move, pulling a few, CC'ing what is in camp so you have a mob waiting to engage next, and back on the move to keep 2/3 in camp at all times. It is never ending, you will get carpel tunnel playing EQ, and never get a bathroom break. But, it is fun if you like being active, and can do pretty amazing stuff as a "good" bard. You can single handedly effect the exp/hr by working non stop. But, never think of yourself as dps, since you aren't. Your solo game isn't great, but doable in some circumstances but never efficient outside of farming some AA later in life.

Shm - you end up healing, and with slow healing is easily done. Groups will still 1st look for a cleric, so early on when there are a ton of clerics leveling up you may have a hard time getting in groups, unless the group realizes that shm dots are pretty solid dps and slow makes leveling trivial. You will have every group member asking for buffs they don't need, and if you cave, you will be oom at all times until you get group buffs and canni that isn't junk. You can solo quite easily with slow, dots's, self heal, and root/snare clicky. You get a fancy FD item in sky which can make life much easier to get into camp spots or survive. But, outside of farming a named or so, you really aren't solo beast to farm exp too quickly. AA is easy enough since you can farm lower level mobs and just have a non-stop plow with canni.

Raid:
Bards - you are song bots with the casters, or either song bots with the tanks/dps. You need probably 2/3 bards on a raid (1 for casters, 1 for tank grp, and 1 for the dps). Your dps is non existent, but your songs boost the raid more than your measly melee/dd/dots can do so.. dont worry about that, just know you aren't a "dps". Once you get fade, you can pull with the best of them. Selo is your friend and can pull trains to the raid to clear the trash. However, between other bards and monks and SKs your pulling roll is limited, so be prepared to just hang out and sing songs at the raid.

Shm - omg everyone wants a full compliment of buffs. Buff the tanks, the clerics, and when enchanters are charming mobs for dps, get them too. leave everyone else to struggle. You will have to learn what classes actually need buffs. Maybe a str/dex for monks if you have the mana? Once you get group buffs, it gets easier, and if you work well with the other shm on raids, you can get the raid covered without being oom constantly. Your dots are some dps, your job is to malo/slow once a tank engages, and keep your group alive. You got a lot to do, and again, if you like being active it can be fun.


Both really boost the group, in different ways, and can turn a mediocre group into a solid exp grind. On raids, same thing applies. If you look at box groups, which try to maximize the output with minimal effort, everyone's 3rd or 4th box is a bard. You get your tank, your healer, a dps, and drop a bard and that 4 box can do anything. If you plan to have a tank or shm as a raid main, getting all the good raid drops, you can do a lot with a small box group focused around the shm as healer/slower/dps and even tank since you get chain armor. A small aside, bards are fighting with all the other plate wearers, and tend to get forgotten so expect all the tank classes and clerics to get gear 1st. Shm only fights against the rangers and the 1 rogue in the raid for gear, and tends to get geared up rather quickly.

If someone says shaman slowing is only marginally better than bard slowing, they're willing to lie about other things as well.

Don't bards become like mega super duper DPS machines in later expansions? To me, bards are way more fun to play. I enjoy my bard way more than my shaman in raiding and basically anything else.

Also to the guy who said run speed isn't important... Untrue. It's so hard to play without zooming around with bard speed once you've played a bard.

I don't know if this becomes a regular thing but as of GoD/Omens there are zones that violently punish you for the crime of not having bard speed. Pulling in RSS is a nightmare at SoW speed.

I think around 75 is when bards get the bellow upgrade that transforms that AA. Suddenly they become very good dps in far more scenarios. Of course, all their utility, by this point, has kind of been maxxed out for a long time as well though too. For example, overhaste never gets better, resists just don't matter, their melody of mischief is still used I think until like 90'ish... etc. They always stay good and versatile though.

I wouldn't go far. By TSS they still don't have two of their staple utility/adps abilities - fierce eye and funeral dirge - and only just received another - funeral dirge. Some other useful utility they still don't have are things like Rally (TBM I think), Spire, Vanglorious, Shauri's (double invis), etc.

This is what happens when I post before coffee. I fixed my errior.

Noted.

If you're talking quality of life for travelling outdoors, there's fast mounts.

But sure, fun can be a very different thing to go by. Bard has other tricks too (also tracking, illusion clickies, lockpick,). "Jack of all trades" kind of goes too far I think, but certainly something to the effect of having the a wide variety of skills.

RIP Hamburglar Halflings.