Shaman or Bard through the expansions?

I haven't played either of these classes in any real capacity, and I was wondering how they fare through the expansions. I'm bouncing between these 2 classes because I want to play a good support class and I don't really like switching mains.

I've heard shamans are good in groups, but it sucks playing one in raids until group buffs (in Luclin? PoP?). I think I can put up with that considering everything they can do. Do they just buff, slow bosses, and spot heal in raids? Do shaman ever DoT/do anything else in later expansions?

I've got mixed feelings about bard. Their resist songs are nice, but everything else seems pretty weak early on. I like that they practically have every spell effect in the game. I kind of want to roll one to see for myself how much they bring to a group, but I think being just a melody bot that sits next to the casters would get boring real fast. I get the feeling that the shaman brings more with the buffs/haste/slows/heals, or am I wrong? Edit: I also heard that Bard mez / charm stops working on highest level mobs until PoP?

Also, I intend to frequently raid Rivervale and murder all halflings, and I believe shaman may be better for that.

this is the one occasion when I'll recommend an Ogre shaman

I can speak a little on Bard. Bards can carry a group better than a shaman. Reason being is you have the best pulling tools so you get to dictate the pace of the group. You also have emergency tools if things do get out of hand (like your healers falls asleep) in mez and charm. While yes mez and charm do not work on the highest level mobs in the early xpacs that is rarely an issue because the best xp tends to be in places where the mobs are quite a bit lower in level.

In terms of raw power Shaman is going to feel stronger. They have access to buffs, debuffs, damage, and healing. Bards however are much more adaptable and have use in every situation. You get access to run speed, pick lock, sneak, and group invis. Allowing you to access all of EQ easily. More importantly you are 1 of 2 classes with access to mana regen and it stacks with the other. Mana regen is one of the biggest bottlenecks to xp in early EQ.

Raids will probably favor shaman in terms of fun unless you plan on playing past omens. A lot of the skill in playing bard in early EQ on raids is all about song selection and spamming kick. Shaman with keeping up on debuffs and healing and managing your mana.

How far do you plan on playing? Shams are the most versatile of the three priests and one of the most versatile classes in game. They also happen to be a personal favorite of mine besides war. If I wasn't a main warrior on live, my sham would be.

A good sham will heal nearly as well as a cleric (and in most situations do better) while putting up decent dps numbers, but a druid will always them out. However, druids are stupid OP in terms of dps these days.

A well played sham is one of the most powerful classes in game, but you just don't come across that many. Early on they are bottlenecked by buffs and slows, but they really start to flourish later in game.

Pretty much right. I'd go farther to say shamans are downright godly in groups, and nearly unwanted by guilds for raids. Apart from the one or so shammy needed per raid for debuffs/buffs/slows. Heals and cures will be the most important thing they can contribute in raids. After that, you can dot if/when you get a chance, no one really cares about your dps, even if it's not bad.

Bards are weak but very versatile, with multiple unique things making them desirable for raids. "Fun" in raids often consists of pretty much just choosing the appropriate songs, which eventually does get pretty complicated. Sometimes there's fears and stuns and you can't just melody afk. Also you have to carefully time clickies to avoid bugging your melody. In a lot of raids you can also run up and hit the boss mob with your sword, yay! (don't look at the dps parse.) In groups bards are backup choices for when you can't get another classes that does the same things better. Bard mez/charm does have frustrating holes in early expansions. Eventually it gets fixed.

Also shamans can solo dragons.

Absolutely incorrect. Especially as we progress through expac, you will want 3-5+ shaman per raid

It was only slight hyperbole. And I did say "only one or so" precisely baacuse a couple more are nice to have around. (are you being sarcastic too? "You need at least three!"). For slows and debuffs, yes just one is needed for most raids. For buffs, one is certainly doable though painful if there's no boxes around pre-raid to help (which there usually are). More is just a nice-to-have for speeding things up and giving out more carnage or whatever. Apart from occasional raids that need cures.

Meanwhile bards (who I was only half-joking about too) are indeed highly-desirable for raids by design.

If you're talking much later in the game then perhaps, but first shamans have to slog past entire expansions of being hardly needed.

Well starting in Omens, you want 1 shaman per melee group from epic. Also, redundant people to cast slows because a single shaman is likely to die trying to slow everything.

This is spoken like someone who doesn't know anything about shamans or anything about the raid scene beyond the original trilogy.

1. Sham 2.0 is still used on cooldown in every melee group on raids 17 years later.
2. Their Dicho are just insanely powerful for all melee groups. And before Dicho, it's their Leopard/Panther line whatever it was originally called. Been too long for me to remember.
3. Ancestral Aid rotations in raids is a must.
4. Twincasting their Swell (splashes) on cooldown is ungodly powerful.
5. Growth + Alliance on tanks is a huge benefit.

And that's just the basics of what a sham brings to a raid. Couple in that they malo, slow, cripple everything, provide some of the best overall buffs (especially for melee), and an provide decent forms of CC with VP and their AE VP, shams are one of the most critical complimentary classes needed on raids.

Shamans are one of the single most powerful classes in game. The healing powers of a cleric, the adps nearly as important as a bard/enc, if not more for a melee, and can still put out solid dps running burns with their dots + rabid bear and while doing everything else and having zero mana issues because their canni is elite.

This is a TLP forum though. The TS specifically mentioned Luclin and PoP. I'm certainly fine admitting I don't care about a TLP after the population dies out. So yes, thanks for the clarifications about significantly later expansions guys (by my math, 2.0's come in expansion number 8, or nine if you count classic.). Personally I played the sole active shaman in a raid guild during PoP once. Once I even played a shaman box well past that in a guild that had zero active shaman mains.

As for your only shaman dying, yeah but with slow mitigation, the chanter can fill in for a bit less slow. It's not the end of the world.

What's your point? TLPs don't go to later expansions? That's such a lame butt excuse for speaking ignorantly. Just because it's a TLP forum, that doesn't mean you shouldn't speak for later parts of the game. The intent of a TLP is to go through all content at an accelerated rate. People just choose to flip TLPs endlessly, limiting themselves to the objectively worse eras in the game for a class design perspective.

If truly want to understand a class you're going to want to know it from A to Z, not stop at C and give up and proclaim they are junk on raids.

You obviously didn't read OP well enough. He mentioned Luclin and POP because he said he thinks he can get through the pain point areas of an early sham and then immediately asked about later expansions.

Your argument for only needing one on raids can be said for just about every single class in the game because Classic-POP is a snoozefest. By that logic, every raid force should just be a handful of wars, clerics, 1 of each of every other class, and filled out with all monks. Sure that works, but slowly and surely you'll start to see the detriments to that mentality.

Just because you "can" raid without a sham, it doesn't mean it's a good practice. It's like saying you can tie your shoes together and still walk. Technically possible, but seriously inhibiting your raid's potential because you're leaving lots of dps on the table.

Even if we're just talking luclin-pop on TLP I wouldn't worry about if a raid guild wants your class. If you can have good attendance then you will find a guild on TLP.

As for the OP, raiding on a shaman isn't that bad you're just busy more when others might be standing around. The raids in those eras just get CRUSHED. And raiding as a bard you can melee and such, again the raids get crushed.

Ok... and so you spoke for them. And thanks again for your service.

And it's not every class. But yes several classes are not needed beyond one or perhaps a few. But depending on the class, some stack very well and others simply don't. Hence some are still highly-sought after and other are far less so. When people ask for advice, these details are of use to them.

There are zero classes that need to be heavily sought out on TLPs before POP. The content is just that easy. You can gather a raid of nearly anything as long as some semblance of tanking and healing is available and down all the content. That point isn't even worth mentioning.

I swear some people on these forums are the living embodiment of the allegory of the cave.

deleted. not worth posting.

I'm leaning more toward shaman atm, but the Bard Epic + the way bard improves with expansions sounds pretty awesome. It's just the classic/kunark hump I'm worried about burning out.

There's also a lot of EQ I haven't seen and I think Bard may be better for exploring it.

Just continue the tread of talking about better era of EQ.

Bard's do get a massive DPS boost in TSS (Boastful Bellow) and TBS(Jonthan's Mightful caretaker), in addition to getting a better ADPS tool box.

Shaman, because a solo bard can be frustrating for quite some time.
I say roll a shaman and put extra time into a bard if you can. In the end you will have first hand experience and will be able to make up your mind.

So does ogre stun immunity prevent Bash from interrupting spells, or does it just prevent the stun effect?

You will still get interrupts, it will be less then other races but it still happens.