The plan or whatever for 2022 just states heroics going to move up to 100 in September. Apparently playing more than 10 levels is too much for someone just starting out. It's too big a hill to climb, and existing friends at max level won't be bothered to help them unless they're immediately usedul(which they won't be because they'll be clueless thrown into 110+ if they haven't played or not in decades) and this everyone thinks heroics should be 110 so all they have to do with their new toons(that's the real conversation here) is get taskadds and popped in the group. God forbid anyone put ANY work in. I'm not talking about ditching heroics, but 100 may have been a lot of expansions back, but it's not far off in effort from 110+ or 115+ to be "useful". And actual new or returning players need a little shallow swimming to get acclimated or they're gonna quit even faster. The "relevant" expansions as one put it(tov and up apparently) are gonna seem like getting hit by a freight train of that's the new "starter expansion"
The Negative Nancys will complain about Pay-to-Win. You can see the argument now: "It is very difficult to grind and Darkpaw is selling fully leveled Heroic Characters (110-120)." Put the two together and they will argue that this is a "money grab." I can see why the devs would want to keep it lower level to avoid misconceptions (blatant Pay-to-Win). There is general consensus that players should "learn how to play their class." People do not want to invite "incompetent" players to their group or guild. Whether that means setting Heroic Characters farther or closer to max level is the subject of debate.
I've never LFGd in my life so it's certainly not my case. I think 110 is really pushing it, period. At 100 if you want the toon or buddy to be more " relevant" then spend the 30minutes on tov missions and another what, 45-60? On tol or do some tbl(and any other number of missions that help) and feel free to flingem up closer. 85 is too low, period, because you can't even group with 120s, but as soon as you're 100 if you want to skip the next 10 levels of xping and gearing you can do so rather quickly then plop on some snowbound and off you go. But a returning or new player isn't gonna be viable in current content no matter what level heroic you give them until they get their sealegs, and 20 levels out of a 120level game isn't asking much at all, especially since they're gonna want to go back and do all the progression from all those aforementioned expansions anyway just like someone returning that's already 100+. The amount to do from 100+ is less intimidating than the gross inflation of the last few years if you throwem in the deep end to feel useful then end up feeling worthless.
My thought is it'll be easier to get your sea legs the higher level you are as you can find people to help you out. The gameplay in EQ has been stagnated for so long that if you can play a 100 Class you can play a 120. There is maybe 2-3 more spell lines per class between 100-120, couple new AAs but essentially its the same game play. The farther behind in levels is just going to make it a longer period for the player to be in populated zones.
So, your solution is for them to buy taskadds to go from 100-110? Is that supposed to be more enjoyable than attempting the content with others and learning how to play?
LMFAO I don't sell either, I'm still catching up from my own hiatus from 100 to the proposed "relevant" era but my biggest issue is exactly as I've stated: getting my "sealegs" each time(in and out since Ros) and remembering all the new stuff, not not being able to do anything. Gear and levels aren't the issue and weren't when I came back after 6yrs either. Remembering as much new stuff that's happened since then as happened all the way to 100 was. Came back in RoS. Caught up by myself. Geared up by myself. Left again. Forgot nearly everything new when came back last year for longer because time off was longer than time on, and again this year the sheer amount of new things to remember that I finally remembered last year tacked on to the new stuff to remember. Having some time to acclimate your brain to the many additions is more important than having gear and levels to jump directly into endgame when all those additions kinda need to be second nature already: that matters a lot. Being within level to group with an old friend or whatever is important(why 85 is too far removed) but being immediately ready? Not gonna happen. Don't put your freshly licensed teenage driver into the Daytona 500 and expect anything good.
You know what makes it easier to catch-up mentally? Playing with other people. They can give you feedback and guide you, instead of being on your own. Your example is bad, because people become whatever you train them to become. If that teen just learns to drive normally, then they’ll just be a daily commuter as an adult. No chance of becoming a race car driver. If you begin them with race car instructors, they’ll become race car drivers.
It will take longer than a day, but I get your meaning. Lots of people also seem to be forgetting about the spells, abilities, skills, progression, and gear that come with a Heroic. Matching a Heroic is not just levels, you have to also do the other things. How long does THAT take?
It takes no time, I have powerleveled my own alts to 110 in a few days, and I know people do it faster. Skills etc. take no time, the only thing that takes time is DoN progression but I just wait until I have enough DB from monthly claims to buy Heroic to upgrade.
See, I AM the returning player, I'm just not in need of a boost because that's not difficult. It's not a couple new spell lines and that's it. Slot5s were added since RoF, 100-200AA/rank must-have aas were added, a completely different way of doing tradeskill for the next 50 skillups was added, a still relevant 3 year old tradeskill quest(and other items still relevant) were added, attunavbe random drop raid gear was added and the economy is a nightmare. Alliances and heroic aas and Merc gear and aas and explorer achievements for runspeed and whatever the name of that spell line I STILL can't remember(evolving) was added and not even remotely obvious. An entirely different gearing and auging system(bricks etc) was added and Kronos cost 15x what they did in RoF. New activated aas of large quantities(the entire AA system was revamped between RoF and Ros as well) and if you still have your layouts and hotkeys, they all broke because of that revamp among other things. People that have been here the whole time can't see just how much different it is now. Not just gearinflation but rampant mob inflation requiring exponentially more dps comparatively for "the daily grind" than RoF etc. Pickzones! Something I didn't even hear mentioned for like 2 months despite it being commonly used. Not sure if fellowship vitality was around or not back then, if so it was new or not that useful yet. So what did I do when I came back this year at 115 and full threaded? I went backwards to remember in lowstress zones. Not because I wasn't levelled or equipped to go to ToL but because I hadn't been here long enough to retain all the new knowledge and had to remind myself. Even though in RoF I was max Max max everything, first to 100 first to progress blah blah, I could still play the 100-game in my sleep, nothing forgotten there, it's like going from a satphone to a smartphone lol. Just making a phonecall is radically different nevermind anything else. Edit note: I'm not complaining, I'm not without the people and other informational resources to find out all this stuff. It's the sheer volume of all this stuff that takes a little time to retain and that is my entire point. Being 110 doesn't make anyone useful before they've had the time to retain everything. It's not just 2-3 new spelllines. Lol.
So in your example, people at 100 would go back to level 85 to adjust to the game and learn. How is that any better than starting at 110 and going back to Shards Landing to learn a bit?
No. I came back a week after tol launched. 115 in threaded was hardly behind lol. I'm saying that just being made 110 isn't going to make anyone feel more useful than 100, it may very well make them feel less so because...get this...every single patchnote that you've read and experienced 1 month at a time, for all these years, just got dumped on them at once. All those changes. Wanna feel useful? Start where youre only a little behind the update curve mentally not 8-9 years. Progress at whatever speed you need to ABSORB the 96 give or take pages of changes that have happened to the game between the new level 100heroic(or whatever level you last played at if it's since then) and feel more accomplished and enjoy the game more being only this much behind the times for now, now move on to the next chunk. Don't read the dictionary overnight and expect to remember every word tomorrow. The whole acquisition of levels and gear and progression is part of the enjoyment of the game. Memorizing and committing 96 pages of changes to the point of being second nature is not enjoyment, and that's exactly what being plopped into "relevant and useful at 110" takes. Gear and xp is quick. Grinding for 20 levels while you acclimate your mind then finding out the missions you're now prepared to contribute to are going to go to waste. Not reading the test notes far enough ahead of this last patch I wasted hundreds of aas on each toon on stuff that was just autogranted...that's disappointing. My fault I guess for not reading test notes more than a couple days ahead, but that's a much smaller scale than those 96pages. Hey I wanna be 110 so I *look* useful, then find out I need to do all that progression anyway for clickies and hero aas and this n that, not just the xp I thought I was skipping by buying a 110 heroic...gee, what a waste. So many complain they're done with a new expansion in a couple weeks. So, you want new and returning players to feel that a couple weeks later? 7 weeks ago the levelcap was 115, might just as well ignore ToL in this timeline. It took 2 years to get there from 110 levelcap. This is not one of those console games meant to be finished in a month, and if you wanna play it that way that's your prerogative, but insisting that anyone not close enough to the finish line when they start to do so is somehow missing out? That's a bit presumptuous. 100-120 is nothing. Getting useful gear at any level since 65, is nothing. Having the chance to play, relearn, or just mentally catch up on the game after some years doesn't need to be instantaneous. The people that really want heroics to be 110 want it for their alts, not because they actually have knowledge what a returning player wants or needs, and some returned may want that at first, then realize they're missing out on the reason they wanted to play again in the first place. Again, I'm not someone that's been here day in day out since beta 98. I'm someone that put in 1700+ days in like 6 years then didn't set foot here for the next six years. I am not the guy that never had a clue nor cared to and I'm not the guy that's been at the front of the line for every new expansion since it's inception. I am the returning player so many purport to know what I want, without actually being such themselves. Never had any interest in going back to experience eq from day 1, but I certainly didn't expect to start playing endgame my first day either when I started, nor was I prepared to. If someone doesn't need any such refresher course in all the changes they're probably not been gone long enough to need a heroic anyway, and if they have been gone that long, there's a lot to learn even if 100% retention of prior play. It's not just a switch you turn on by simply becoming 110.
It does take time to "build" a Heroic equivalent yourself. I'd wager it takes considerably more time than anyone on these boards estimates. And as you pointed out, you wind up using a Heroic anyway. Why? Because it's faster. I am not against Heroics, and I am not against PLing. I am just trying to point out that it seems many are looking at levels only when weighing a Heroic against conventional progression of a new character. There is much more than simply leveling to consider.
You said this: Then you said this: Singularly one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Learn to drive before you learn to race...what you said is impossible, no one learns to drive in a racecar
100 seems a bit low 105 seems right although at 110 get some secret dawn gear and prob the best looking gear ive seen from a expansion.
The base currency in EQ and all other games that have an economy is lifetime. Lifetime is more valueable than money ever could be as lifetime is something substantial that is based on life energy (health) while money is based on manipulable values like availability, money supply (inflation, deflation), belief and trust. Partially digital currencies (USD, EUR, etc.) and purely digital currencies (Platinum Pieces, Krono) can be converted into lifetime and the result is individual. This does mean that Heroic Characters can theoretically save up some lifetime if the goal is to catch up more quickly to the level cap and all the other things that might be included in the package. Someone mentioned that also progression is attached to level 85 Heroic Characters. Which kind of progression ? What other stuff is to consider ? I also upgraded some PCs to Heroic Characters but everything that the PCs seem to have received is Level, AAs, spells, equipment and a mount.... and it totally screwed the spellbooks and did took many hours to sort them.
At the end of the day Heroic Characters are a band-aid solution to the fact that this game is 22 years old and the last catch up expansion we had was in 2006. TSS will get you to 75, and it works well to this day, but 75-105/110 is absolute agony for anyone who doesn't have help. TBM is almost what is needed for a 75-105 xpac, except the unlocking of gear and augs is not trivial and most people are unaware of how it works. The other issue with TBM is the scaling is inconsistent at best, and depending on your class certain levels can become near impossible to complete certain mission. It works great if you have enough people or boxes to complete it, but solo is going to be very class dependent. Regardless of the level of heroics there needs to be some way for a player to get to current content solo in the likely event they won't have someone to drag them through to populated content.
How much work do you expect a returning or hopefully new player to put in so they’re close enough to meaningfully contribute to a group of players playing at the level where 95% of players are? EverQuest needs better catch up mechanics. Games need to catch players, the first few hours have to have fun in it. It doesn’t take 100 hours to watch all of game of thrones, you shouldn’t be able to watch an entire tv series and not be caught up in levels (you’d still have tons of aa and quests to do ) That 110 vs 100 is a big difference in time if you don’t go group with higher level people and be a leach on their group.
There should be a minimum level cap for accounts to qualify for Heroic Characters so that new players have time to learn the basic gameplay and how to play the class. To many noobs arrive in the newbie forum after they bought a Heroic Character and have no clue what to do and how to beat mobs. An account that already has a PC that is over the level cap should be unlocked. As example if the level cap would be 50 and the highest PC on an account is lvl 49 the account would not qualify for buying a Heroic Character. But as soon as one PC does reach level 50 or is already lvl 50 or higher the account would be unlocked for unlimited Heroic Characters.
