tol is a dissapointment

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by mblache, Dec 12, 2021.

  1. Gorg00 Augur

    FWIW, I just pulled up my log files from one of my characters, between these two lines in my log file:

    You have gained a level! Welcome to level 116!

    and

    You have gained a level! Welcome to level 120!

    There was 4309 "You gain party experience" messages (a fair amount of these were in WW, not in ToL zones because I was waiting on my group for my main character to log on).

    There was 34 non recruit mission overseer missions finished (that account only has level 1 and 2 overseer because it's not my main so I don't really do overseer on it).

    In addition to the 4309 mobs and the 34 overseers, he did the 4 Hero Missions.
    Vumad likes this.
  2. sieger Augur

    Also, while gorg leveled a bunch of chars on his own, at launch I was in his group and it was not at all what I'd call an "ideal" group--Warrior, Cleric, Druid, Shaman, Enchanter, Monk. So not really stacked for DPS, too much healing, not ideal aDPS for the War/Monk, the SHM was someone who hadn't played in 9 months.

    Also due to various work / real life schedules we could rarely play before 8:30p ET or after 1AM ET or so. Now this was not pure grinding obviously--we did all the content, but we were still done by I believe the first post-launch Tuesday, so took us more or less exactly a week, and we had like 3 nights in there we didn't run the group due to real life / raids overlapping our group time. We were not the first group in the guild to 120 (gorg individually I think may have been server first 120 because he leveled some on his own.) Many other people in my guild are now 120 and basically none of them have been non-stop no-lifing to do it. We have people that have mostly been playing on Mischief for PoP and only had a couple days to touch live who are 120.
  3. Alnitak Augur

    These numbers equate to approximately 0.06% level exp per kill. I guess you've used a few Lesson's.
    Which basically validates previous estimations for averages. Thanx for the info.
    Wdor and Corwyhn Lionheart like this.
  4. Tappin Augur

    Have fun playing this game when you guys are the only ones left.
  5. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    1. Nobody is refusing to do quests & missions, access to the progression sytem they are structured within depends fully upon either getting groups or boxing, do you genuinely believe that boxing & grouping are available to everyone? I know that they are not.

    2. Yes grinding is "viable" though painfully far slower than it was in any prior to ToV expansion, do you not wonder if perhaps people have a reasonable right to question if it is too slow?

    3. Levelling through questing was a design change brought about by Solo-friendly MMO like World of Warcraft, EQ has now adopted the levelling by way of quests model but they have done so while still excluding any form of solo progression through the levels in the game, something Skrab pointed out and which is absolutely true.

    This makes EQ a doubly hostile environment for new & returning players & for anyone who has not already found themselves in an established clique or developed their boxing ability to manage the situation forced upon them by the developer teams design decisions.
    TLP will continue to work for a while & allow the dev team to ignore the problem of players who would like to return to live servers but unltimately ignoring the future path to return back to the live servers will eventually mean the live servers will require more & more merges while they gradually bleed out of players.

    The vast majority of players remaining seem to be oblivious to the game's route to success, all they are interested is in maintaining it for the dwindling population still active, even while many servers are complaining about having such low populations that outside of th first week or two of the expansion launching they are at barely detectable signs of life on them.

    Keep putting your head in the sand I guess, but don't come crying when you're in maybe 1 guild left on your entire server with no other guild left to absorb and you can't raid most days through lack of people logging on.
  6. sieger Augur


    If you want to argue that EQ should be a solo friendly game for non-raid content, I'm not really opposed to that, but that really isn't a germane point if we're comparing ToL to previous expansions, right? Like soloing has been impossible for many classes for years and years and years (particularly if we mean real soloing and not moloing, and even many classes can no longer meaningfully molo), and the few remaining solo classes, the xp has been dreadful compared to group options for literally years, this isn't new with ToL or ToV, but goes back at least 15 expansions if not more.

    So that's where we are--grouping is more or less the intended way to do non-raid content. Soloing is not intended. The mercenary system has largely been abandoned and I'm assuming for reasons we aren't told, there is no meaningful desire to maintain them. I main a Cleric by the way, the worst soloer in the game, and I don't even have any serious boxes. I get all my stuff done with groups. Being a guild leader I 100% admit I can probably get groups easier than people that sit by themselves in a guild only their alts are in and never communicate with the rest of the server, but it's a group oriented game. Maybe that should change, but that doesn't speak to whether the xp is too fast or slow--if you want to encourage people getting stuff done outside of grouping you need actual real solo-friendly content, which means easier content. Mobs with vastly less HP who don't hit nearly as hard, that can be easily pulled in singles.

    Leveling through quests, IMO, was not implemented for the reasons you suggest. All evidence suggests that doing the quests is actually just intended to be a "bonus" for doing the core content. You still have to grind to get max level unless you wait for Overseer to bridge the gap, which would take a good number of days assuming your Overseer is up and viable with agents.

    I also reject the idea that grinding in ToV and ToL is much worse than the norm, sorry, I just don't see it. I think grinding in EoK and RoS was far more rewarding and fast than in previous eras, but I am not making the claim that the EoK / RoS era norm is representative of EQ's 27 expansions as some typical situation, it is not. EQ has historically been a very grindy game where leveling takes a really long time and XP per mob is not very high.

    Again--if you want leveling to be faster, say how fast. What a lot of us are taking issue with is the claim that somehow quests or overseer are "broken" or "required", you guys want to level faster with less effort. Please define how many hours of grind time you think is reasonable to hit max level and how easy should the content involved be, should it be soloable? Duo'able?
    Wdor, Szilent and code-zero like this.
  7. Gorg00 Augur

    1. I don't think that quests are any more group oriented than grinding is. They both expect on having something resembling a full group, though certain classes can get away with less.

    2. Just like people have a right to complain it's too slow, we likewise have a right to say it's not too slow, and in fact it is about comparable to the amount of time investment for doing it via questing.

    3. Like I said above, both grinding and questing are group oriented in EQ, if you want solo activities you're much better off asking for that, rather than trying to make grinding something that will make the expansion take even less time for people who do have a group (which doesn't even solve things, because solo player will just cry that group players can get it down in 6 hours while it takes them 20).

    You keep talking about returning and new players, but that's incredibly short sighted, new and returning players need different solutions than what is reasonable to have when the content is in era.
  8. Skrab East Cabilis #1 Realtor

    This is where you have to do think outside of your own experiences. ToL and Live servers are going to progressively become emptier as the expansion moves through 2022. Progression groups will be less likely.

    So, this leaves grinding out mobs. Keep in mind returning players mostly aren't going to grind in current era zones unless it's a box crew, charity or Krono. They'll be in FM or GD earning around ~3% a play session.

    Those people aren't going to stick to Live and keep the game alive as they face 110-120 in an empty zone and no groups to progress through ToV or ToL.
    Wdor, Treage_Imminent and Skuz like this.
  9. sieger Augur

    I'd also add that for a good chunk of expansions, a large portion of each expansion's open world zones were locked behind...doing progression, typically a combination of quests and group tasks. I think when Underfoot launched only like three zones were even accessible without doing progression, Seeds of Destruction had a similar setup, The Darkened Sea and The Broken Mirror had the same, The Burning Lands also locked a lot of stuff behind (none too easy) group missions. The idea that the "norm" that was "upset" with ToV was you could just casually grind everything and be happy...just doesn't ring true to me, you used to not even be able to see most of the expansion unless you did the quest-based progression.
  10. Alnitak Augur

    Since you addressed those questions to the Universe, I'll answer:

    You are correct, not to everyone. Grouping is available only to those, who posess social skills of making friends and interacting politely with strangers. And boxing is available on live servers only to those who have a desire to box.


    No, I do not wonder. There is no question about that, it is too slow, comparing to some people's desires. There is no need to ask again or requre confirmation ... again. Those repeated questions about how slow it is constituted whining, not questioning.

    There is no question number 3, however I disagree with your statement. Questing/grinding balance shift is not just a solo-gameplay issue, it is equally applied to group game. So, these issues are separate - solo progression in EQ and quest/grind balance. Regarding solo the answer is simple - get a group or box. And regarding quest/grind balance there is a difference in opinion and desires from many different EQ players. Current balance is toward quests. It changes with time, in many expansions from today it may change back to grinding.

    This is a total lie. I am a returning player and played solo for a long while and I have found EQ a friendly and welcoming place, much more so than it was back to GoD era.

    Or need to be split due to overpopulation. There is need to be a doomsday prophet.
  11. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    How is looking at how the game will affect players coming back anything but looking at the future survival of the game? If that is short-sighted you & I have very different understandings of what that term means.

    So far suggestions have been thin on the ground, but there have been a few.

    Kizant suggested altering the amount of xp required per level for "old" expasnions (aka the expansion for that level range ages).
    For example: Once ToL unlocked then the XP per level requirement should have been reduced for levels 111-115 so that grinding for xp in ToV was restored to a speed seen prior to that new xp per level requirement.

    Benito suggested granting players some free gear upgrades as they passed various level thresholds.
    For example a set of gear equivalent to a set of T2 pr crafted group gear at 100, 105, 110 115 etc.

    Tucoh suggested a Squire system that boosted low level players up to within 5 levels of the highest level player in the group

    I have suggest a "side-kick" system similar that seen in City of Heroes (or "lackey" in City of Villains) that did much the same thing as a "squire" system, though the player being boosted had to remain within a certain distance of their mentor.

    Personally I am fine with "current expansion" having next to no experience from grinding mobs and almost all of the XP coming from quests IF there is that supporting system to aid new & returning players from perhaps one or a few of those suggestions above. I'm personally not actually advocating for making grinding viable in current expansions, I am simply saying that they cannot be left "as is" for the players following along in their wake and having to play through them in that state once they are no longer the current era.
    Wdor, Treage_Imminent and Skrab like this.
  12. Cicelee Augur

    Thread has now reached FQ politics, where you mostly have two sides to the debate. Both sides have presented their arguments and points, and no one on either side is going to change their mind because someone on the opposite side has convinced/changed their mind.

    BTW is there a way to ignore someone on these boards? FQ life would be more enjoyable not having to see certain names show up. And yes, I am sure some people would like to put me on ignore too. It goes both ways.
  13. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    It is only a lie when taken out of context in the way that you have.

    Solo through ToV as a 111 group-geared player then compare that to soloing through GoD before you call me a liar, even with better group gear you will have a far slower levelling time if you do not use overseer.
    Or alternatively you can log in for overseer only from 111-115 & then tell me whether you enjoyed that passive "play experience" more than the "active play experience" of soloing through GoD.

    Try that & maybe you'll actually grasp the point I am making.
    Wdor, Corwyhn Lionheart and Skrab like this.
  14. Benito EQ player since 2001.

    You seem to come back every 2 years.

    Achievement XP is always a big deal at a level cap expansion launch but then the complaints start to taper off as players realize how easy and convenient it is to level. At most, 3-5 people (a vocal minority) persist in their complaints over grind xp.

    The EQ demographic no longer encompasses young teens to 20-somethings. We are looking at older folk who do not have the time or patience to grind mobs.

    As others have said, you can still grind if you choose. (I'm sure we'd get another vocal minority if we turned to Gribble HAs).
  15. Tappin Augur

    Nope been playing solid for a long time now without breaks.
  16. Benito EQ player since 2001.


    1. You would have made good with your prognostications after Torment of Velious.

    2. You seem to have adapted to the changes.
  17. Gorg00 Augur


    Because it's ignoring the needs of the people *currently* playing the game, who will then leave and those returning players will have nobody to play with, and then they will also leave. Have you seen live servers towards the second half of an expansion? It's super dead because the bulk of players have already completed their objectives for the expansion.

    The ideal is that the game just has plenty of content to fill a whole year, but absent that, the quicker you make the content that does exist completed, the quicker it goes back to being a ghost town. There's a lot of grouping going on right now as people get levels and AAs, but as people finish them out, they'll fade out-- so all you're really asking for is for that to happen sooner.

    Looking to the future survival of the game would involve coming up with systems that help new/returning players *without* hurting the existing game.
  18. Gorg00 Augur


    I've seen more people successfully solo/molo their way through 111-115 than I have seen solo/molo through GoD FWIW.
    Qimble likes this.
  19. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    How have I ignored them?
    They are catered to by the current paradigm & I have long been an advocate for larger expansions with more content.
    Nowhere have I suggested dismantling the progression system, nor have I suggested less content within it - quite the opposite.

    No I am not, you have clearly misunderstood a lot of what I have been saying if this is your conclusion.

    None of the suggestions I have made do that, nor those I listed in my earlier post because they don't impact "current era" the squire/sidekick may even help current era players if players who are not yet high enough level were enabled with a boost that let them play with current era players - thus ensuring even more groups were actually possible for everyone.

    If you feel any suggestions I personally have put forth hurt the players currently in the 116 - 120 content I would like for you to explain how you think they do that.
    Wdor and Corwyhn Lionheart like this.
  20. Gorg00 Augur


    So this is a thread where people are crying that it takes too long to level by grinding in ToL, there's only two possible scenarios we're in:

    1. You agree with those people, in which case what I said above holds true.
    2. You either don't agree with those people, or you don't care one way or another and you're just randomly interjecting in tenuously related threads to talk about your sidekick system idea.