Review of TOL expansion

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Fian, Dec 11, 2021.

  1. DeadRagarr Augur



    I think there are better solutions for this. It would be totally acceptable if for XP you gained was also tied to level vs current expansion.

    All current expansion zones would be given a healthy "Bonus xp kill" and older zones would remain where they are now.

    For example:

    So if you are level 111 - 115 ToV-CoV-ToL will give bonus xp for killing a "Worthy opponent" - If you are level 116 however you lose that "Bonus" tag and are reduced to the normal grind that it is currently set at. You still however gain the big XP boost for doing the one time quest completion. Meaning even above 116 it would still be nice to go and complete older content.

    The 116 player would then lose ToV-CoV Bonus tag and be forced to enter ToL and be given "Bonus" xp there instead.

    Quest XP would remain the same regardless of level. Meaning that a level 119 would still gain a decent chunk of XP for doing ToV/CoV Progression.
    Skuz, Velisaris_MS and Aneia like this.
  2. Barraind Grumpy Old Bastage

    As part of the "perpetually 1-2 years behind" group (I buy the current expansion for 1 character, not 6+, since the number of people with access and desire to do the new content is almost nonexistent on my servers, for obvious reasons), that plays on TLP's and Test, TBL started the trend of me doing less and less each expansion, and it seems like this one isnt going to be any different, only fewer people are excited for the content of 2 years ago, except the groups still running cobalt scar.

    I dont know who decided to move away from the previous model to the silliness that has been the last couple years, but oh god, its pretty awful. People arent leveling by doing tasks and missions, its overseer and grinding EoK/RoS/CScar.
    Skuz likes this.
  3. Alnitak Augur

    Today is 7 days since expansion release. My main toon turned 120 Yesterday, after 3 days of meddling with Hero missions with the group of guildies. Our guild never raids, a few players have some raid gear earned on open raids. Although the group consisted of maxed up players with most AA's and most Hero achievements from previous expansions. All 4 Hero missions + Paragon added up to about 115% of the level.
    My main toon turned 118 on the day of the release by clicking a zillion Overseer Collectible Dispensers (has over 600 stashed) to complete lots of Scavenger's. (spent about 350 or so)
    Also did Maiden Eye's Mercenary and Partisan with my box team (went quite easily, no hard mobs, and write-up already posted online).
    The rest was Overseer tasks at about 10% per day.

    Bottom line - I have not grinded trash mobs, I don't even have group progression completed. And I did not spent any DBC on Overseer. What I did - planned strategically. Let me explain.
    Last February when I maxed my new CoV AA's I was facing 9 months of no-progress on my main team. So I started the preparations for ToL (unannounced at the time).
    I have collected Overseer Collectible Dispensers for 9 months (those 600+ I accumulated). I did NOT use them at that time, knowing full well I'll need them in December. I went back to older expansions and got those Hero achievements for Resolution etc boosts.
    What I will do in ToL - will grind trash alot for Fellowship Vitality sharing for my army of alts. Same as I did in CoV. And when DPG adds more Mercenary AA's I'll finish ToL progression to fill those up to the max again.


    AA's in Umbral Planes was slightly better than typical T1 trash in CoV, I wouldn't call that low, I'd say typical.
    And I have my doubts that even 2 rogues can take down 50-million HP mobs in 10 secs on average without burning, Assasinate or not, but mobs have too much HP. We have not arrived yet to that point when an AA-grinding group can do 5 million dps on a consistent basis.

    Just my 2 cents.
    IblisTheMage likes this.
  4. Gorg00 Augur

    I actually think it's you who don't understand the problem, though you're close here.

    Catching players up is a concern, but that concern exists irrespective of the leveling paradigm. EverQuest content is designed around groups, and taking a level 85 and trying to get to 115 or even 110 (to avoid the ToV level increase) is basically an exercise in frustration.

    That has nothing to do with whether XP comes from grinding or quests, and everything to do with the fact that EQ is not a game that can easily be played as a solo player. Players in that situation either have to deal with abysmal XP returns as they find "trivial" content to molo (and if you're a class that doesn't molo well, good luck), get a PL (either paying or by pity), or start up a box group and level a group up together.

    After watching the above play out multiple times, the only people I've ever seen successfully get within striking distance (e.g. even getting to 110, predating the quest reward XP) are people who got pity XP from a max level or who started their own box group. People trying to molo their way up basically never stuck around because the experience was miserable (we had one person I think ever do it, and he was a monk which is probably one of the ideal classes for that, good luck if you're a wizard).

    The fastest group in my guild completed ToL prog in something like 18-20 hours, after which unless they had collections or overseers, they still had to grind out about half of a level. At 10% xp/hour (what I was getting in ToL zones w/ a 50% pot*), it's like 40 hours from dinging 116 to dinging 120 or 35ish for 119.5 to match the questers, or if you're able to manage the hero's, it's like 28ish hours (23ish to 119.5) + the 4 heros.

    So the very best bang for your buck comes from the heros, and if you're able to do that, grinding versus questing isn't really much different. If you can't do the heros, then that's going to add something like 10-15 hours onto your grind.

    * Now you might say that not everyone has access to 50% pots, however not everyone's group will complete quests as fast as the fastest group in my guild did either.
  5. Gorg00 Augur

    Another thing, is I actually think the new paradigm gives *more* options, not less.

    Previously if you wanted to level the only path forward that was even remotely within the same stratosphere was grinding. If you wanted to quest, well too bad they give almost no XP and the rewards/hour are abysmal, like it would likely take you months of hard XPing with them to level instead of hours.

    Now you have the option to grind OR quest, sure questing is now the most efficient way (which before grinding was the *only* way).

    Also previously doing a large chunk of the group content was often times mandatory, you had a lot of these expansions starting with SoL's lucid shards, and then more recent expansions like UF, HoT, etc where the group progression was effectively mandatory if you wanted to access major parts of the expansion (sometimes up to and including spells, gear, etc).

    Now you have the ability to more or less completely skip the content (in ToV/CoV you could just completely skip it, in ToL there's a single group mission that's required to gain access to one zone).

    The entire thing is much more flexible now than it has ever been. The only real thing is that now grinding isn't the most efficient.. which is OK IMO.

    You could argue that 20+ hours of a raid geared group going hard in the paint is too much effort for these expansions (or alternatively, that it's fine now, but in 4 years it's too much). I don't agree with the first, and do agree with the second, but both of those are different things than "grinding is too slow relative to doing quests).
  6. Skrab East Cabilis #1 Realtor

    Your reply just emphasizes that the modern game just hammered in the coffin nails on returning players. Grouping will be limited to get the Heroic achievement experience and even more limited for Partisan and Mercenary tasks.

    Grind experience can’t be this awful, when you don’t design the quest system to repeatable content. If someone sits down for an hour in an efficient group and gets around 6.6% experience without a potion in the latest T2 zone, that’s just psychologically discouraging. Now take a suboptimal group back to GD and that’s going to be even less. They’re just going to drive people into questioning why they’re wasting their time for <5% or just load up an AFK program.

    Using quests and focused objectives to provide leveling structure is a very successful model, but EQ isn’t implementing a successful version of it. Partisan tasks are cumbersome as they’re not shared, content requires groups but there’s no incentive to repeat non-missions, an abandoned LFG system, etc.
    Aneia and Velisaris_MS like this.
  7. Xyroff-cazic. Director of Sarcasm

    I'm pretty indifferent to this debate overall, but I think it's pretty reasonable to expect that the level 110-120 xp situation will be revamped by the time it is possible for anyone to be going through it while also being 30 levels below the current level cap. If we keep getting new expansions all the way to level 150+ then yes it would obviously make sense for players be able to grind their way within spitting distance of the level cap without backfilling tons of progression missions.

    That's a discussion point for several years from now though. Doesn't really factor into the current design at all imo.
    Abbydog likes this.
  8. Windance Augur

    I just finished up progression in VT and have to say I really enjoyed it.

    The zone has some see invis mobs which forced you to clear some rooms. Mobs are fairly tight packed which means you generally get 3-5, but group geared tank and two healers were able to keep up fairly well. CC of some sort is advised.

    What I liked most about the zone .... the rock golem animation as the roll up to you. nice art work there.
    Qwalla likes this.
  9. Uoman New Member

    The game had always incentivized balancing grinding, questing and ts'ing. Vumad might claim there were barely any quests, but that's out of ignorance. Quests were just designed to increase a characters power through other means than simply raw experience with other options being viable as well. Most players only cared about the BIG quests, though. Quests that gave massive experience returns or best gear because questing is and was just as boring as any other single aspect of the game on its own. As new content was released, old quests just became pointless as players found better options to attain gear and pp, but select items still remained useful for several years. Things changed with the copy/paste gear model and increased levels every other expansion. Only the tradeskill quest items remain viable after the release of a single expansion.

    Questing was something that many people actively ignored, just as they did with tradeskills. There's nothing wrong with making the path of questing or ts'ing a viable option for leveling up, but that shouldn't come up at the expense of other paths. Yet that's what has happened.

    The core system is now completely unbalanced. Quests and such are now compulsory and trivialize grinding. Running missions and quests is far more rewarding to the point players have been waiting out replay timers for years now. Seriously, think about that. It makes more sense for most players to not actually play the game because there is no incentive to do so. That is how reliant this game has become on one specific type of content. Now questing is hands down the best option for EVERYTHING and you are actively disincentivized from doing anything but quests/tasks/missions to the point that people won't play if they can't actively do them. Even chase items, the last remaining excuse for players to grind, were shifted to be more common or only available in missions.

    Well, if we listen to people like you and Vumad then that's EXACTLY what the game was for roughly two decades. If this shift had actually had a positive impact that argument might hold weight, but making it harder for the returning and rare new players makes that impossible.

    At the end of the day, people who grind having their time valued equally to that of yours does not negatively effect you. And yet you're acting like some how people having other paths would ruin your ability to play the game. If people are maxing out within days or hours of release of a new expansion, does it really matter whether they quest or grind? Pandering to a single demographic that drives players away from any given game, not just EQ. Even if 90% of players are like you, which the success of TLP servers and the inherent grind suggest is far from the truth, then you're still alienating 10% of your playerbase because you couldn't be bothered to even attempt to tune content to offer similar returns on time invested.
    Treage_Imminent, Skuz and Vizier like this.
  10. Vizier Augur

    Uoman this amounts to the "haves" being happily superior and the "have nots" wanted to be treated fairly. The game system used to value both groups fairly by allowing a steady grind to catch up to the those who get their guilds to trivialize the expansions content in less than 3 days.

    Should it take longer to grind up? Yes. Should it be viable path that respects our time? Oh hell yes. That second part is where DPG is either blind, doesn't care or simply doesnt have the man power.

    The why of it doesnt matter. The point is they are taking our game and abusing it. It cannot sustain this for much longer.
    Scila likes this.
  11. ArtremasEQ Augur

    You all know this is everQUEST right ? Its not 'everGRIND', the point is to do the quests, and they get the highest reward. I think that model change is awesome for the game overall.

    The whine level on this each expansion is what beggers belief. Come back if you haven't leveled in a month. The Expansion has been out a week.

    Time to call the whinebulance I think.
  12. Vizier Augur

    Here is an example of one of the "haves" being happily carried thought the content of an entire expansion in a few days. Nothing wrong with this, but please understand your position does not reflect the entire community.
    Treage_Imminent and Skuz like this.
  13. ArtremasEQ Augur

    Carried ? Thats hilarious. Played through it to be specific. Took some time off work and had a fun 4 days. (Did not have any saved collects to click, all XP done in the new Expac)

    And FYI, I've played this game since 2000, seen it all.

    Just the whining of 'it's been out a week and I'm not 120, cause I want to do it the hard way' beggars belief.

    You are more than welcome to grind it up, at 8 mobs a % of XP. At least this is more than it was back in the day where a single level took weeks of grinding..
    IblisTheMage likes this.
  14. Vizier Augur

    You think that distinction makes your position more a more accurate representation of the community? I do not. You are done with the content using the quest system. This is the only way to play the game that respects your time. That is a bad thing, whether or not you personally will take advantage of other systems. The idea is to create a large world that caters to lots of gameplay styles, not pigeonhole all players into doing the exact same thing.
    Skuz likes this.
  15. Gorg00 Augur


    I've leveled several characters to 120 with the 4 hero missions + grinding. Grinding is perfectly viable.
  16. Fian Augur

    What would be a valid exp rate for grinding? Here is my proposal, 6 man group consisting of 2 mercs. 300 kills of white cons for a level, or 3 kills for 1%.
  17. sieger Augur

    Yeah, I think there is a genuine reality that getting into the "modern" game is very hard for either genuine new players or people who have been gone for very long time (and have mains that are less than level 100 or so.) That's a problem. But leveling up in ToL is not a problem. You have two paths which can be blended--questing/missions and grinding XP. The grind rate is not at all bad, Gorg is in my guild and as mentioned we've had a good chunk of characters hit max level almost entirely from grinding, and that was before the expansion was even one week old.

    As a long time TLPer who only converted to a Live player in March of 2021, ToV and ToL definitely take longer to grind to max level than say, the last 10 expansions, but keep in mind that a number of those expansions have been tweaked in various ways to make exp higher than it was in-era. I think the last relatively slow exp expansion prior to ToV was VOA on TLP, and my understanding is VOA was even slower to exp 90-95 in era than it was on TLP.

    To compare with TLP, a new TLP opening in Classic and then when Kunark opens, a 25–40-hour timeframe for grinding out max level in era is not at all unusual, and tons of people think that's fine. I think to some degree pure grinding XP and leveling were a little too fast for content that is supposed to last more than a few weeks, in expansions pre-ToV. I feel like a lot of groups in my guild were literally pre-popping lessons, stacking up collections, and then immediately taking their group to do big burn exp sessions, then popping into a second lesson when the first expired, and being max level in literally a few hours. That was normal for a number of pre-ToV expansions, but I'm not actually sure it was "good", that's kind of silly fast for new expansion leveling content.

    ToL leveling is absolutely fine and should not be touched. The topic of barriers to entry for new players to the game is basically a whole separate discussion, and I am in favor of seeing "getting into" the game become easier for new and returning players, but that's something that should be done by altering things in pre-ToL content, ToL itself the leveling and questing are absolutely fine right now.
  18. Kazint Augur

    They could double the XP gains in ToL and not hurt anything. It is pretty low right now. Although, I don't think it's that big of a deal considering that if you're playing when ToL is current you have other options. Once an expansion is 2 or 3 years old they should consider increasing the xp gains from grinding by a lot to help people catch up quicker.
    Skuz likes this.
  19. Fian Augur

    Using min/maxers as your argument isn't a strong one. Most people don't have perfect groups, groups are not consistently pulling mobs, etc. Get back to me on how quickly a molo player can get max level in the expansion.
    Treage_Imminent and Skuz like this.
  20. Skrab East Cabilis #1 Realtor

    You can't really compare leveling from RoS 106+ versus a TLP. The player power progression is way different. On a TLP each level adds character power, contrast with Live where all the character power is at the end level after AA re-grinds.

    It makes leveling feel very bad, and needing to race to the end to finally start getting your character power back.
    Skuz likes this.