Reversing the power level

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Deckerd Smeckerd, Dec 1, 2021.

  1. Alnitak Augur

    In my personal experience, during my college years my varsity team by chance had to play against other college team, which had the full roster of professional national champions at that time (long story why and how). So our team of 20'ish y.o. students were murdered on the field by grown-up professionals with some record-breaking score, a total game disaster. That was the best, the awesomest and the most cherished game in my memory. I was thoroughly enjoying every second of trashing our team was receiving. I was proud to be actually playing on the same field with those names. It's all about how one views the situation.

    Whatever level squire/sidekick is joining my group, it's either maxxed uber tank to do those few missions I have difficulties with (my team happens to lack plated tanks) or it WILL be a charity from me. Because there is absolutely no benefit I can get from an underpowered and undergeared sidekick. That means - it will be a donation of my time to that character, i.e. a charity.
    And all things considered, it's more effective to PL a level 85 toon (benefitial to that character), who just stays out of the way and soaks experience than to try to incorporate underwhelming sidekick into a combat order.
    And to answer your question about "what's bad about" : it's bad for ME to divert developer's resources to help some small group of strugglers, who are loners, want to molo, only want to join random pick-up groups and not join a guild, and when get PL'd they want to feel useful and not just get extra experience.
    Because if you are not all of those things at once - there is a solution already in the game.
    code-zero likes this.
  2. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer

    EQ2 has the "Mentor" system, in which the higher level person is reduced to the same level as the mentee, while retaining all spells, armor, weapons, AA, and abilities - all reduced in power based on the target level, while still considering the quality of said spells, armor, weapons,etc. So a max level raider in raid gear mentoring down to level 1 would be more powerful than a level 60 grouper mentoring down to level 1. It's actually really fun to mentor down and go hit some old dungeons and raid zones. Mentoring only requires grouping with someone lower level than yourself, you right-click their name in group and choose "Mentor", then go adventuring. The mentor level raises as the mentee gains levels so they are always in parity from an XP perspective. This is absolutely the best and most fun way to help someone level or complete quests.

    EQ2 also has the "Chronomage" system in which you choose a x10 level to reduce to. So a level 120 could reduce their level to any level below in multiples of 10. Thusly level 10, 20, 30, ...., 110 without the need to mentor. But you can only do this using a Chronomage NPC.

    I would hugely support Tucoh's idea or any iteration of EQ2's system. It makes supporting returning players and friends interactive and fun.
  3. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    So basically your perspective is "I'm alright jack" again, stuck in the boxer / self reliant state of mind and not able to see beyond that.

    I'm a boxer myself working on getting my tank from 110 to 115 but I want to be in the position of being able to help others not in a 100% I do all the work & you just watch how awesome I am way but in a they get to pull their own weight way.

    And to me I would rather a sidekick was able to join in and contribute rather than being a useless liability of a 6th wheel I need to keep ressing when they inevitably drop dead.

    I would rather developer resources were put towards a sidekick system precisely because it benefits casuals & players who are not at the cutting edge yet because I feel like I see the bigger & longer term picture for EverQuest where we need to have a bridge in place so that returners, even new player can be where the game is most fun - i.e. where everyone is playing, without some rite of passage trawl through 21+ years of old content or a wallet dip heroic - and to go on a related tangent this is where a UI overhaul plays into that in many ways.

    Because the alternative to the squire/sidekick is either crafting solo content or a statsquish and both of those 2 options I do not feel help EQ retain the vertical progression and group-centred on-brand gameplay the game was built upon.

    A level-bridging mechanic is rare in MMO's and I feel like City of Heroes was way ahead on that front, I would happily see EQ borrow that system and be one of the very few games to use one as I think it would make EQ a far more accessible game for the future.
    Skrab likes this.
  4. Skrab East Cabilis #1 Realtor

    Alnitak's perspective is:


    They just want to be feel powerful in the eyes of others, and have them feel the same way about them as they once did to that team.
  5. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Yeah, some never tire of of that perhaps, for me I have been there, done that & gotten several T-Shirts, I don't get any buzz from that.
    I do get a kick out of seeing a player get to max level & start raiding / doing well and knowing I played a part in their journey to enjoying the game to it's fullest, /shrug maybe that's a "dad" thing to say but it's how I feel.
    I've done the helping out a lowbie with some old velious raid drops thing, the hand them some defiant I had thing and the crafting them a set of conflagrant to get them in better shape thing.
    I've done the free Power-level thing and all these things were "okay" options.

    I feel like I won when other players are winning & I helped get them there, but there's a point when charity is a poor option and when there's a better way to do things, when you no longer need power levels, when you have moved beyond free hand outs that's when the game has moved to a better paradigm because players are "better enabled to help themselves & help others" they aren't just tagging along watching some awesome dude give them a charity hand out, they are in the fight and being a part of the group in every sense, that's a far more inclusive situation and I think that's what EQ should be working towards - better inclusion.
  6. Vumad Cape Wearer

    Making it free to transfer any character from a newer TLP to an older TLP is much easier and immediately addresses all the same problems. TLP ladder transfers would be considered part of the subscription perks. Heroics could still generate revenue for people looking save time while TLP ladders would cause leveling to bunch up in certain eras. I wish there was an easy solution for lateral transfers for people who fall behind, but unfortunately I don't see a solution for that. Anyway, ladders aren't happening and seem like an unpopular idea, not sure why. Seems like such an easy solution.
  7. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Transferring from a newer TLP to an older TLP solves what problems for the player transferring?
    Doing so may end up actually exacerbating the difficulties they faced on their old server by increasing the gap between them and their old population even further with the new population even if the old TLP was higher population than the new TLP, which I don't recall ever happening more than once, as far as I recall every older TLP has had a lower population than a new TLP except for Ragefire holding onto players for longer than Phingel did - though even that is a skewed argument as Phinigel moved through expansions far quicker.

    The Ladder TLP idea was dismantled a hundred times already with good arguments, I know you think it was a good idea because most humans think their own ideas are brilliant, your TLP ladder server idea wasn't entirely devoid of merit but was idealistic and ignored a range of factors that worked against it.
    Let it die.
  8. Iven Antonius Bayle

    No need for seasonal characters, this does sound complicated and players just and only would create new toons for the extra rewards and then delete them after a few weeks but maybe this is your intention. The mechanics do also work against immersion, roleplay and character development. Players do create new toons constantly already and most of them are boxing groups. Just move to Crescent Reach, there are about always boxing toons with silly names like Puppeta, Puppetb and Puppetc there. These type of players do not want to team up with other players. It is a single player game to them. Seasonal characters would have about zero effect in populating lower level zones and it would be in conflict with the current bussiness model that is all about selling new expansions (with an increased level cap).

    There are already two features that had the intention to assist lower level PCs and these are Friendship (mini guild) and Spirit Shrouds. Both have failed badly in this and are only used for other purposes like "cheating" in quests and granting access to otherwise level locked zones. Especially Spirit Shrouds could need a revamp as the toons are way to weak to be usefull for grinding mobs and to help other players.

    We have to analyze why the lower level zones are that empty ! The reason is the 22 year old business concept that never got changed much and which is that everything is to much focused on selling new expansions with an increased PC level cap. This can work for a few years but does lead to the actual problem in the long run. And this problem does exist since many years and does get worse with every new PC level cap. The heroic level 85 PC feature from the HoT expansion was one of the many tries to fix this but it made things even worse for the players and especially for new players and so for the developers, the gaming company and its investors. Basically for everyone. Because of the heroic PC feature the zones below lvl 85 are now empty even more and let alot new players quit fast. Heroic toons cannot find much other players to team up either. EQ barely can bind new players for more than a few weeks today which is a key point for game success. Someone has not done its homework ! So many good player suggestions just got ignored.

    How to fix the low population in zones below the last few expansions ? This can only be fixed by changing the business concept and some game mechanics. A final level cap and PC rebirth could do wonders there. New expansions would then have to focus on a much broader PC level range and integrate old content. Lost Dungeons of Norrath was a good example in showing us how this could be done successfully. As instanced zones are a bit problematic they should only be a part of new expansions and not a whole expansion full of instanced zones like LDoN was. The idea of dynamic NPC levels was also very interesting.
  9. Metanis Bad Company

    I think the OP's suggestion was very good. But as a confirmed pessimist, I'm sure Darkpaw won't even think about it due to the effort required to implement it. Over the years there have been numerous good ideas. But when the head office is full of bean counters rather than gamers...
  10. Vumad Cape Wearer

    I think better than seasonal characters, would be to include 1 mission per expansion that works like the shroud mission with the gods for Halloween. I forget the name of it but everyone in the group selects a god to play the mission. If this had been standard for every expansion, then we would have 30 of them by now, hindsight being 20/20 and all. Anyway, being a shroud mission, it negates level differences. Friends of any level could play these missions for XP together. The mission would always be the same, but the XP reward would scale with player level.

    Unfortunately, for most, this mission wouldn't be popular if part of progression, so I think it would be better to have it as a special launch 6-9 months into the expansion cycle.
  11. Vumad Cape Wearer

    Actually... I've always been a fan of using beta buffed characters as a catchup mechanic, so instead of a shroud system, they could instead use a beta buff style character, where you just select the class you want like you would on beta. Just unlock an option near the end of the expansion cycle where you can select between playing your own character or a standardized beta character in an existing ToL mission.

    This could be a huge benefit to the game, as I could select to play any mission from the expansion with an era appropriate toon on any class. This would not only be enjoyable, as I have always wanted to play a BST but have not had the time to level one, but it could really help me appreciate the viewpoints of my peers. I have played cleric, but never druid, and as a caster, I am always with druids on raids instead of clerics. It would also solve issues like not being able to find a tank or w/e you need to round out a group to do a specific mission.

    It would probably be simple to implement. Buff to 120, drop in T3 group armor and generic augs, give all Rk2 spells and just unlock all the AA. Super cut and paste style stuff. No other work is needed, because you'd just be playing the standard mission as someone else. It doesn't skew progression much, because it would become available at the end of the expansion cycle. Once the interface is implemented, it would be super easy to roll it back or apply forward. There are only really 4 armor/aug sets to consider (caster, priest, melee, tank). AA and Spell need 0 tuning, just unlock them.

    Maybe lock out loot and ACH for the player who jumped characters, but allow AA XP and currency to be earned for their actual character.
  12. Risiko Augur

    I think the real question is what do you consider "low level" that needs help in the first place?

    If someone is starting out brand new (or coming back to the game after many years and starting over), I would highly suggest they wait and start a new character on the next TLP server when it starts. That server can EASILY get them from level 1 to 65 and fully geared with out ever having to solo. They'll meet new people, make new friends, and learn the game quite well.

    After that, they can either stay on that server or transfer to a Live server to continue on. That's where I would say the real issue comes in to play. The level 65 to 110 range is extremely long and boring mostly because there's nobody to play with when you do it. In my opinion, that's the range that I would be targeting when discussing "low level" that needs help.
  13. Iven Antonius Bayle

    An example:
    • 1-84 = Low level
    • 85-('Level cap' -6)= Mid level
    • ('Level cap' -5) - Level cap = High level
    However as alot newbies start at level 85 this could also be defined to be low level until about level 95.
  14. code-zero Augur

    Umm, you all realize that deleveling an EQ character for any reason effectively removes all AA abilities for any AA that had requirements for a particular level. This means that the uber AA raid geared max level character in all likelihood would be useless at the lower level. That's not even touching the level required gear
  15. Alnitak Augur

    And UPleveling presents no smaller amounts of questions: should that upleveled character be allowed to join quests/tasks with minimum level requirements, which exceed natural level of the toon?
    If it's ok to join, should the character receive the reward above the level restriction?
    How about the high-level loot?
    Paid accounts only or should F2P be allowed to uplevel?
    And how to stop the abuse of such upleveling by unscupulous players?
    And how to balance the situation such that max level players actually get the unhindered benefits of the collaboration, or fragile egoes of upleveled players may be hurt by not contributing enough.

    Whatever difficulty a less-than-max player may have there is a practical solution already in the game: join the guild and get help from guildies, if you are an intravert - make a box crew, if you don't want to ASK for help, because saying "thank you" is a torture for you - BUY a PL service, no obligation or gratitude required. If you are a hermit and a loner and still love EQ - slowly grind up to max level.
    Each and every one of those solutions are used by many all the time, seen it, witnessed it.

    There is no need to meddle heavily with game balance just to satisfy a minute desire of a tiny group of players. Game statiscs had shown time and time again - the majority of paying customers are high-level boxers of various kinds. Developers should cater to that audience, not to some exotic wanderers.
    And the math of that unpleasant truth is simple: I pay about $800 to DPG per year, if you pay less than that - you opinion is less important than mine. (Yes, my opinion is less important than somebody's who pays $801 dollars per year). And displeasing me is less desired than displeasing some loner, who struggles to level past 70.
    It's all about numbers, and numbers are simple - time and time again there is many more lvl 115 characters online than there is lvl 65 loners. And one of the reasons - even loners at 65 eventually get help from more powerful players and become 115 and join the flow. There is simply not enough people joining EQ servers from lvl 1 to warrant spending any development time on them. Every expansion there is an odd item here and there useable at low level, which notably improves gameplay at lower level. Add them all up and you can see that it is vastly easier to play this game at lvl 65 comparing to PoP era, solo or not. And it's still not enough, some whine and demand developers' time to be directed away from next expansion toward some mid-game percieved struggle.
    Simply not warranted.
    code-zero likes this.
  16. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    This only works until December 7th as when ToL launches and the level cap goes up to 120 you will need to be level 90 in order to gain xp with a max level toon as the max gap is 30 levels. And that gap will just grow the next time they increase the level cap.
    Skrab likes this.
  17. Skrab East Cabilis #1 Realtor

    I'll update my profile with my annual spend, so you know how to judge my opinion.