Can we get a window added to see heal over times?

EverQuest adapted. That's the point. I think it's a much better game now than it was when I started playing, game play wise.

Yes, maybe half of the 10,000 people still playing agree. The 500,000 who quit, however, think otherwise. "Better" is an entirely subjective term, and you are of course entitled to your opinion. "Much less challenging", however, has objective meaning, and is a label the present game cannot avoid.

That's quite an assumption you make. You don't get to be a self-appointed emissary for others. I would suspect there would be quite a few less players these days (if the game was even still active) if they did not make the QoL changes they have made over the years. But I concede I can't speak for others either all the same, so that's just a guess. Let's not forget the context of this discussion was due to pouncing on someone for merely asking for a UI element for spell effects the player has cast on others. I agree that's not going to happen, but I find the idea that it's "hand-holding" to be a tad absurd.

Even when you are talking about challenge, I don't really agree. The game is much more action-focused now than it used to be. I specifically remember saving unfortunate dps with my three second cast time single-target divine aura when it was introduced. Mobs kill players so quickly these days if a dps player pulls aggro from a boss they will almost certainly die in far less than three seconds. Even adds on raids can kill raid-geared tanks in a split second at times.

In general the game has shifted to a quick reaction speed type of play as opposed to the long-term resource management of years ago. I would say it's different, but not necessarily less challenging, I go back to the examples of Gates of Discord, Underfoot, and The Burning Lands being exceptions when it comes to raw difficulty. The game was not typically that hard any time since I started playing, and I really do not think "takes forever to get from point A to point B" and "lose a bunch of real-world time after dying" count as "challenge." So no, I do not think the challenge is objective in the least unless specifically talking about measurable parameters. Even how we are defining it isn't in agreement. Challenge is only meaningful in relation to the players involved, too.

It sure has changed though, that's for sure.

By any rational -- and measurable -- parameter, they game is far easier today. What metric do you wish to use?

Likelikood of success? Back then, most servers saw only one, perhaps two guilds at most kill all the bosses in an expansion, and even simple group-level camps regularly wiped full groups so often that calls for assistance were daily, or even hourly occurrences in most dungeon zones. Raids that racked up several hundred deaths for one single encounter were common .... I know of at least one raid, by a 100-man guild that clocked well over 1,000 total deaths, just trying to zone in and clear trash mobs in one raid zone. Even moving to the level of solo content, only a couple classes could solo deep blue mobs, everyone else made do with the occasional green.

Penalty for failure? Losing levels from dying was too common to even merit comment. The amount of exp lost (and dying so frequent) that there were many players who found it utterly impossible to progress beyond the mid-30s in level-- every time they played, they lost more than they gained. I know of raids in which some people lost 3 and even 4 levels on just one encounter. In some cases (as my example above) some players lost not only levels, but all their gear as well. Every single item. And regardless of what you may think, a high cost of failure does indeed add difficulty.

Effort required to meet a goal? The first time I did the original epic, it took three solid months. The last time: 9 hours. I know people who did it far faster. Other quests took longer: there were several with items so rare that only a half-dozen people might expect to finish them in-era. Raid-wise, guilds regularly spent weeks or months of near-constant effort to overcome one single encounter. The effort required to even reach some zones was so high (and the risk there so steep) that the vast majority of players didn't even attempt them. Take the original VP, for instance: I know of no server in all of EQ on which more than one or perhaps two guilds even attempted.

If you don't like any of these metrics, offer one of your own. But please make it more reasonable than your prior "mobs kill you so fast that if you pull aggro, you can die in less than 3 seconds"; a situation that's always existed.

Complexity of individual raid/group events, and synergizing group composition/performance to complement one another's abilities at the right moment to achieve optimal performance.

Depending where you draw the line for "yesterday's EQ" vs. "today's EQ" - in many cases optimal performance used to be literally mashing two or three buttons, with no regard for which buttons your group or raid mates were hitting. Modern EQ requires far more communication with and/or monitoring of your allies in order to perform well.

None of those examples prove anything, as none of it has really changed.
People have gotten familiar with the game. Experience doesn’t change difficulty. The same risks and hazards still apply (for the most part, losing all your gear on a corpse run and there being a high possibility of you never getting it back is a prime example).

EQ was ground breaking when it came out. It was a new. VP was a new experience for everyone. A tank and spank encounter where everyone pushes the same 2-3 buttons repeatedly until the mob is dead is significantly easier than juggling 40 buttons.

Likelihood of success: this is based on experience. The game was new, experience was minimal, so not many completed tasks in era. Not many knew how to go about it. And this I’ll tie into the next one..

Effort required to meet a goal: again, based off of experience. You’ve been doing these same quests for 20+ years. Everyone’s done it. People have the steps memorized now. Yeah sure I can run through an epic quest line in 10 hours (assuming the mobs are up) at level 80 no problems. But have you tried doing the epics at level 50-60 solo? Still impossible. Would still require groups at that level range. Take someone who’s only played EQ for a year, and don’t really know anything about epics and have them go complete it at level 60. See how long it takes. I bet it’ll take them close to a few months as well. Even with guides and walk throughout.

Penalty for failure: this was probably the biggest issue. Rezzes and experience being regained wasn’t anywhere near as common as it is nowadays. Losing a level, losing your gear, was a major setback. With the intro of the guild lobby and then even later mercs, that’s no longer an issue. Probably one of the biggest QoL things that came around was the removal of corpse runs. And I still say to bring this back lol but I know I’d be one of 3 people. At this stage it’s just tedious and doesn’t apply any real game play experience.

There are still players who have played 10+ years ago who are coming back and struggling and complaining about the state of the game being too hard and how it was easier in the past (everyone knows who I’m talking about). But I’m taking that at face value and nothing more. The difficulty can be equated to risk/hazards of a new job. When you’re new, the job is difficult. And 20 years later, it no longer seems difficult. The risks and hazards are still present, but it no longer seems “hard” to you. Even when things get added and taken away, the base doesn’t change.

First time in the operating room as a heart surgeon vs the 100th time. All the risks and hazards are still present….but you’re a lot more comfortable and experienced in the process. EQ then versus now. The difficulty hasn’t changed, as shown by the hazards and risks still present as they’ve always been. Vision is just skewed by years upon years of experience.

Give someone who’s never played Everquest, but played another MMO (say WoW for example), and give them a level 50 character in original EQ and then give them a 115 character with all the AAs and spells and skills. Which one will they say is harder?

The more complex one. Doesn’t mean it’s harder; but the complexity of having si much going on will appear harder.

It's far more than simply having the steps memorized. Several steps of my original epic at level 60 required a full raid force. This time around (also level 60) no step required more than 4-5 people ... and steps that once required groups, I now soloed. It gets worse. Helping a friend with hers epic on one step alone required around 20 hours of camping to spawn one mob. This time around, it took literally less than five minutes. And that wasn't luck -- I stayed to farm some hides, and spawned the mob more than 10X again in one hour alone.

And don't even get me started on how dramatically easier earning exp is today.

If true, you've just decimated the "we succeed more because we're more experienced" argument, and proven my point for me. Two tests: one that 98% of people fail, and the other that 98% pass. Which test is more difficult?

Several fallacies here. First, the number of options alone doesn't imply difficulty: a requirement to press three buttons timed extremely precisely, with the order changing dynamically based on rapidly-changing external events is a more difficult task than simply pressing 40 buttons, with very lax requirements on order and timing. Secondly, there is no encounter in the game that requires all 40 of those options, nor anywhere near. Thirdly, you seem to be speaking entirely of raid encounters, ignoring the fact that there is a complete and total dearth of group content in modern EQ, not one single spot that challenges a full, well-balanced, alert group -- except some of the easier raid encounters, that is.

Of course they do. Players alway whined that "there's nothing fun about a corpse run". Of course. The fun is in avoiding the corpse run. When there's zero risk, the rewards just don't matter ... which of course explains why most modern players feel equally gratified whether they simply purchase that uber item, or actually earn it on their own.

I don't need to be a Michelin starred Chef to know when a meal tastes terrible.

You need to at least taste the meal though. You, however, have not:

Skuz says, "I never raided in classic, I didn't start doing any raiding until Velious.".

This thread has gone way off the rails...

Good request Hamshire. I hate not knowing if another cleric's HOT is already on a player.

Vox Complexity:




GoD Complexity:





CoV Complexity:

Gotta admit it takes a lot of chutzpah to post that, after coming to us with fairy tales about 70+ people beating on Vox for hours on end ... then admitting you'd never even seen the original Vox. /salute.

There was Zero Chutzpah required.
Vox & Nagafen are the most simple raids in all of EQ.
Tank and spank - that's all it is, just like all of the content prior to GoD.

Yes, and Elvis is alive and well on the dark side of the moon. Have any other nonsensical remarks to make?

Following a pre-planned encounter script is one of the easiest things in the world, especially when someone else has already worked out the script for you. Such pseudo-complexity certainly makes a lengthy encounter less boring; it adds nothing in general to the difficulty factor.

"my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge" - Isaac Asimov

If we're going to bring RNG camping the original epics into the "difficulty" argument, then compare it to the tradeskill earring, with raid drops and a massive grind with having to fill out learned recipes to go up each point. I'm pretty sure that's significantly more of a time sink than the first epics.

Hmm, when somebody pees in your Wheaties you don't have to eat them you know and then your whole day can be better.

This thread reminds me of the King Crimson song, "Elephant Talk." It's a great tune if you don't know it already. Check it out on You Tube.

Any UI upgrades could be an upgrade to the UX. I wish there was more effort to improve all UI's.