SK vs. Paladin Solo at 115

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Roguexx, Oct 8, 2021.

  1. Wulfhere Augur

    Hence the mystery. This crew would have figured it out months and years ago if it was easy.

    Here's an idea: consider a pet with Silver Ragesword (SPA 455 Increase Hate by 6%) assisting on a raid add. It procs and the pet gains a large +hate value (in absolute terms) and immediately after that the MT warrior happens to hit Area Taunt and captures all that aggro from essentially zero. Maybe the hate list explodes and the mob runs to the warrior.
  2. Wulfhere Augur

    For SK I think it's obvious and simply their Stream of Hatred AA that is a frontal AE with 200 range that hits 8 targets. It's kinda unique.
  3. Wulfhere Augur

    Another test case: warrior MT has huge 1M hate on boss. Warrior Area Taunts with critical success (or not) and the game incorrectly applies the 1M + change of boss hate to the 2 adds that are in range. Beeline to warrior.
  4. Szilent Augur

    I'm with you, Wulf. Those would all be fun ideas if they were real.
  5. Unoneemoose Played since Beta. Seen it. Been there. Done that.

    Since beta, SK have always had an upper hand with agro. This is obviously before AAs, so equating SK agro-superiority to AAs is incorrect. Before AAs, SK could simply spam cast Disease and/or their lowest level darkness (which is also disease based but on a different cast timer) spell, and taunt, and it would dominate anything a warrior or paladin could do. Disease-based spells for some reason had an insane agro component. Now, this wasn't always a wise decision because also back then SK were very fragile. We made great offtanks for raids, but we were never going to MT something (overleveled for the content aside, but that's a moot argument) of current content. Sony tried forever to change this, even with the introduction of AAs which gave Warriors a fantastic assortment of abilities to taunt. Problem is though, SK still got some AAs and we still have spells. Sony couldn't outright strip agro components from spells, otherwise casters would be able to just unleash he)) with no recourse. Sony couldn't refuse to give SK agro abilitiy AAs because we are still tanks, and do deserve getting them... certainly not on the level of warriors, but still should get AA's for agro. Eventually the agro component of disease-line spells was lowered in an attempt to help warriors, but it did very little.

    Yep, warriors do have good snap agro but it can be overridden (should they make the choice) by any SK with little effort. This is where you have to hope gamers play smart, and not with their ego, at least not on raids. LOL.
  6. Puzzling Journeyman

    I hope you find some warriors that know how to play their class.
    Xeladom, Fintank and Hora like this.
  7. Hora New Member


    For the record, I've been wanting to murder a few of our warrior crew for a while now because of what I thought was them taunting mobs that already clearly had tanks on them. An issue like the one described in this thread would explain at least some of the issues (not all, though... we still have indiscriminate taunters who will continue to irk me and make me push more buttons than I'd like).
  8. Wulfhere Augur

    Funny history rewrite there. Clinging Darkness line is magic resist and SK never dominated paladin, or ranger for that matter, circa 1999. The 3 hybrid tanks competed well back then I will agree and the poor warrior was severely lacking aggro tools. The real patch history of debuff spells vs aggro is discussed in other forum threads.
  9. Ozon Augur

    I


    I am guessing they meant Disease Cloud, the level 5? DoT, it lasts 2+ min as base, but way back in the day it was stupidly high aggro, especially considering it's 1hp/tick so in general it didn't get you summoned. Back then I didn't play an SK so I cant tell you how it stacked up against Rangers/Pallys aggro.
  10. p2aa Augur

    This thread is doomed anyhow, it turned into a wide range of things, i wanted to speak about single target aggro of the tank classes and share some feelings.

    If you have a look at hate value of paladin best single target aggro spells, they are around the same than the SK and warriors counterparts.

    Paladin Crushs are 25 k (12 sec recast) and 20 k (24 sec recast), Valiant : 17 k (6 sec recast), Protest (3 sec recast) : 35 k first tick ? or 20 k, then 15 k per tick, Force of Disruption : 18 k (9 sec recast ?).

    Aren't Protest and FoD Instant cast time with hastened things ?

    SK : Terror current expansion and former expansion Instant cast : 20 k and 16 k (6 sec recast), Protest (3 sec recast) : 26 k first tick ? or 11 k, then 15 k per tic, Spear : 16 k (24 sec recast), Dire : 14 k (24 sec recast), Dissident Bite : 25 k (1 min recast)

    I probably forget some stuff for SK here or maybe some of it not the best anymore to use for aggro

    Warrior : Kragek's Roar : 14 k, then 7 k per tick (10-12 sec recast), Aggravate : 19 k (10-12 sec recast), Oppressing Shout : 21 k (2 min recast), Gut Punch : 10 k (10 sec recast), Blast of Anger : 50 k (1 min recast), Warlord's Fury : 25 k (1 min 30 recast)

    The recast times of knights spells are, for the most part, faster than the warrior disc ones as you can see, if all knight aggro spells were instant cast (like warriors), warriors would fall behind. This is probably the reason why warrior disc don't have faster recast time, because all of our disc are instant.

    Even so, isn't Protest very good spell ? Nearly Instant cast or Instant with AA, and only 3 sec recast time, that's better than any warrior short refresh aggro disc.

    My opinion is that paladins are staying behind SK and Warriors single tagret aggro wise, not because of the hate values of their spells or their recast time are bad, but because paladins don't have worthwhile aggro mods, and probably could use more instant cast spell.

    SK have access to 25 % aggro mod permanently with VoT ? Or there are times it can fade and the spell / AA not back up ? Are there any other aggro mod they have that is worthwhile ?
    Warriors have access, every 40 sec, to 30 sec of 25 % aggro mod and 18 sec of 80 % aggro mod

    Paladins have access to a 15 % aggro mod that is unreliable as need to be recast and fade fast ?

    So, I think that if paladins would have a worthwhile aggro mod, like 25 % +, and been made more permanently, it would be better.
    Making the crush instant cast to compensate for terror instant cast would also be helpful probably.
  11. p2aa Augur

    Looks outdated on current raid content, or yeah your warriors are bad.
  12. shiftie Augur

    At launch hybrids didn’t get spells util level 9. That said they would have had an advantage except that warriors could dual wield which probably came into play early on.
    Ozon likes this.
  13. Syylke_EMarr Augur

    Just to clarify this piece from an SK perspective. Pretty much no reason to ever use VoT on ourselves as we get the Touch/Gift line of taps (current era: Touch of Zlandicar/Gift of Zlandicar) that provides a 25% Hate mod + a HP buff. It is maintainable with 100% uptime and no stacking issues that I have encountered.

    Why Paladins don't get something equivalent is beyond me.
    Warpeace and Ozon like this.
  14. Szilent Augur

    Paladins' self hate mod of 15% is packaged with their "Cadcane's Skin", Preservation of the Grotto. That also comes with a small AC buff. It's not a great packaging, since the hit counter on it can make the buff parts go away at arbitrary-feeling times. If buff slots weren't at such a premium for knights, splitting Preservation's buff part & hit-counter defensive part would be a pretty great move from paladin perspective.

    It is paired with a full uptime group buff -15% hate (that the paladin blocks on themselves), Marr's Salvation
    Xeladom and Syylke_EMarr like this.
  15. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    The problem with protest is there is no over ride hate, so minimal hate as first cast, and no hate on resist as it has to land to do anything. 95% of the time I see a raid leader complaining about a paladin missing a tanking assignment is due to multiple resists of protest (without tash/audacity it happens quite frequently on raids). Not an issue in grouping, just fast paced raiding.

    SKs and warriors get their main aggro tools instant cast and not interruptible. Ours should be too.

    Instant cast stuns/crushes, protest getting hate override, and FoD getting a boost in line with aggro growth versus the same x% every upgrade, that would solve anything I'm concerned about.
    Warpeace likes this.
  16. Chaosflux Augur

    They are on different slots, they stack and 1 is an AA so no spellslot wasted
  17. Chaosflux Augur

    Protest gives full hate on initial cast or resist, initial hate cap doest apply in any testing I've done to classes with bold attacks, but you miss the tick hate on a resist, the problem is its not frontloaded enough and often times the 2nd crush is down because its recast is an eternity.
  18. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    Not if its the first thing you cast on something, then its limited to whatever that tiny cap is.
    Warpeace likes this.
  19. Chaosflux Augur

    And I am saying I've tested that, and the last time I tested it which was late last year outside of Animal body type that wasn't the case on any humanoid or undead I tested it on.
    Wulfhere likes this.
  20. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    Initial action aggro hate cap is still in effect for any action lacking a hate override. Not sure what you are on about. You are telling me you pull with protest and think you're getting 15k hate?
    Warpeace likes this.