SK vs. Paladin Solo at 115

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Roguexx, Oct 8, 2021.

  1. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    I have not been able to figure out where the warrior aggro bug is coming from, and until someone can explain to me what I continuously see on raids, something is bugged. I presume its a confluence of abilities interacting to cause a multiplier somewhere, as that is the only thing I can think of. Has nothing to do with their harmonious type ability though, as that isn't in play a lot.

    I am 95% sure it involves Roar, but how, I don't know. Something is causing the aggro to go nuts on it. I have been on an add, for 10 seconds, chain casting, next highest is at 1-2%, then suddenly, it leaps off me (and goes RUNNING) across the way a little bit (not crazy far, but its not just turning to someone) to jump on a warrior (who is NOT low health), and it has a roar on it. I confirm that the warrior in question casts nothing else on the mob, and isn't even targeting the mob actively after the roar, but my aggro plummets down to anywhere from 1-25% of that warrior.

    It is also usually one of 2 warriors only, never any of the other ones, so has to be something they are doing that interacts in an unexpected manner. Its always Goodurden or Reisil (before he main changed), and *rarely* Fllint. Never Foob, never Rune, never any other warrior we've ever had. I don't have the time or patience to run tests to figure it out.

    There is something different going on with SKs. It usually only happens when the SK is MTing on something though. For example, in Defenders, the other day we had an SK on one of the dragons. The add drakes, spawning on the other side of the platform, which were immediately aggroed by other tanks, and I'm talking multiple casts of stuns or terrors or whatever, would suddenly change target to that one guy, run all the way across the zone and jump him. He never cast anything on the add, and it was like 4-5 adds doing it. Add tanks run across, use everything they can to try and gank them off, mostly unsuccessfully, and we just end up killing them instead.

    So someone with more time than me can figure it out, but something wonky is going on with SK and warrior aggro, and it is NOT intentional from as far as I can tell, and from all the spell data I've looked at, has to be something working incorrectly.

    So is what it is. But I have seen this continuously ever since ToV, and in CoV its been even worse.
  2. Cicelee Augur

    From a non tank perspective, this thread was significantly more entertaining when someone wanted to /duel paladins and post videos of "soloing" "30" mobs. Now it is all a bunch of technical mumbo jumbo.

    Let's get this thread back on track! I want to be entertained again!
    Wayylon, Tropi, Stymie and 1 other person like this.
  3. Maedhros High King

    I have absolutely seen this happen. Sometimes with me tanking a trash add for 30 seconds or more, only to have a warrior, often Zaknaffein and Blender, less often a few others, and I am seeing my agro number drop to nil as well. At first I thought it was Undivided, but that exists outside of agro. I should still see myself at 100% agro even though the mob is temporarily more interested in whoever did the Undivided. Its almost like a taunt, plus 1,000,000 agro on top. I honestly don't think 1,000,000 on top of a taunt would drop me to nil agro after 30 seconds though.
    This is acting like a blur on the mob, or as if I have faded, but neither have occurred as far as I know.
    Chanter AE mez wouldn't cause a blur unless the mez landed right?
    Hopefully we can figure it out and correct it.
    Ozon and Wulfhere like this.
  4. Vumad Cape Wearer


    I can not say with certainty but I believe that our mez can proc a blur even on mez immune mobs. Deep sleep can land on a mez immune mob. Not sure if you are familiar with deep sleep. It is a cripple that procs off mez we obtain from an AA. I would assume that if the cripple component can land even on a mob that is immune to the mez, then the blur component could too. Not every mez we have procs blur, but a majority do. The ones that do not are our PBAE, AE Glance (but not single target glance) and our twincast.
  5. Wulfhere Augur

    Which roar? I too have see the older PBAE Roar of Challenge used. The only curious thing about it is that it has an accuracy debuff. I'm wondering if that debuff has high aggro per tick?

    Roar of Challenge Rk. III
    Duration: 30s+ (5 ticks)
    1: Decrease Accuracy by 431
  6. Tucoh Augur

    Do debuffs aggro per tick? I thought it was once per application, while DoTs added hate per tick.
  7. p2aa Augur

    yeah, which roar is it ? Roar of Challenge or Krondal Roar ?

    Roar of Challenge produces 2 k hate only and is rubbish hate, never been able to grab AE aggro I have stopped using it since a while. I can test it in raids to see if I see this behavior, but this is very weird what is said here as I never saw this massive warrior aggro coming from nowhere in raids. That's very surprising to see warriors using Roar still on adds too in modern raids if it's this one, because this debuff is taking a slot in mob debuff window.

    Kragek's Roar is used much more often, and I have not seen this behavior.
  8. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    Kragek's Roar.

    Nothing in the data supports the behavior. Therefore, I am presuming something is multiplying something somewhere.

    And its not some memblur issue either. Because it persists. Like, for that one example in Defenders with an SK, someone else had lost their add to it, I was free, I went over, ageless then slammed it with aggro, ran it away back to kiting it. I suddenly went from having Denyu at 20% aggro to him being 100% and me being 3% or something like that, and I was on the other side of the pit, the mob turned and ran back to him. There was zero reason for that. And there was 4-5 other add tanks having the same problem.

    I stopped worrying about it because I don't have time to track it down, its like a 1 in 10 to 1 in 15 thing, just do your job otherwise and move on.
  9. Wulfhere Augur

    I would say please keep worrying because I have never had it happen in my direction. Never have I seen a paladin the recipient of a rush of mobs for no obvious reason. Whatever it is, paladin do not get to play with that ball (and it's hurting the tank game balance).

    Another clue is that the offending War/SK does not die from a sudden damage spike as a result of this odd behavior. So they are expecting it to happen.
  10. Szilent Augur

    dude, no one's out here trying to keep deep secrets from you. Stop.
    Hora likes this.
  11. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    It has to be a bug where something interacts oddly or something becomes multiplicative/exponential instead of additive. Like I said, I can't waste time worrying about it. It doesn't ever do anything but get people asking for other tanks to grab stuff off them. Its only a problem when you want mobs kept away from some place.

    We can all keep aggro over all dps classes, so not sure why any of these arguments matter.
    Szilent likes this.
  12. Wulfhere Augur

    The obvious multiplier for Warrior is Spike of Anger proc. More generally SPA 455 is on magician summoned Rageswords, so those procs plus a timely taunt would gain a ton of hate quickly. Otherwise yah it's weird.
  13. Tucoh Augur

    SPA455 is an abomination.
  14. josh Augur

    There is definitely a bug in the aggro meter that has existed since it was created. I'm not sure if other things can trigger it, but one thing that definitely triggers it is generating a ton of aggro. everybody but the main tank will appear at 1%, but it's just the meter as far as I can tell. and there is certainly more going on than just the aggro meter, but this is the only thing i can say for sure.
    Tucoh and Wulfhere like this.
  15. p2aa Augur

    A warrior cannot proc Spike of Anger from his weapon being away of a mob, he needs to melee it and do a lot of swings at it, aka the aggro is increasing steadily and the aggro meter % is increasing also step by step. It's not working with the situation described here from someone loosing aggro instantly from 100 % to 25 %.
  16. Tucoh Augur

    If you guys ever go through the hassle of testing out (or otherwise discover) what is memblurring / taunting mobs, I'd love to hear it.

    It's tempting to just assume that some warrior is AE taunting when they shouldn't or some enchanter is memblurring when they shouldn't, butt high-level warriors and enchanters should know when they are and aren't taunt/memblurring.
    Hora likes this.
  17. Chaosflux Augur

    I am inclined to think its a combination of aggro meter bug, paladin snap aggro being weak (for trying to get it back), weird proximity aggro code on certain mobs, and certain players going very hard or getting lucky procs/twinprocs on things like rune procs, anger procs

    I've never had that scenario happen with a warrior but I have with our good SK, where suddenly the mob is bee lining to him and I am at an incredibly low % on hate.

    I've noticed it's been happening alot more in TOV+ content, when we were in ROS/TBL i cant recall it happening with near the frequency, now it happens once or twice a raid night.

    Heroic leaping to them usually makes the aggro meter unbug (if they ran away from you)

    But basically if an SK or Warrior does take aggro it's incredibly hard to get it back, especially if they are actively trying to aggro the mob, since their hate gen is just stronger in a time frame than ours.

    I don't think it's blurring, our Enchanter doesn't use any blur mezzes

    I did mess around with a warrior and try to replicate roar doing weird stuff and it was seeming to be pretty normal, ill try other some other combinations of roar + other things I guess?
  18. Maedhros High King

    Agreed. When we're talking about a mob thats been active for minutes, that you now need to pick up as a paladin, without a successful taunt there is just no chance with our puny 12-18k hate on these spells.
    I'd really like to see more use of percentage based hates for these cases since paladins don't effing have any.
  19. Chaosflux Augur

    Idk if percentage based hate abilities would be the right answer, they do wonky stuff. There's a very finite amount of percentage based hate effects right now because they realized they kind of messed up after introducing them (largely spike of anger being the main one?). Maybe there is more I am not thinking of offhand.

    I think base values themselves, recast timers in other cases would maybe be a better target area.

    Like the big ones are the "dps crush" is kind well 24s doesn't really jive with how the ability is used and the base value is commensurate with the recast.

    Frontloading for honor as opposed to putting the majority of the hate on the overtime value would also be pretty helpful. Especially since it's usually a very high frequency of our casts.
  20. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    FoD needs a fat upgrade, stuns/crushes need to be instant. If that was the case I could live with everything else TBH. Interrupts are a real problem, and FoD hasn't kept pace with modern aggro.