How do you intend to prove intent to deceive in this scenario, and what punishment do you suggest for the offenders? If I'm half drunk when I set up my trader and I set up my krono purchaser to buy for 4k instead of 40k, will I get suspended? Banned? Who determines the intent of the trader? Since you mention our legal system (LOL) is the accused not innocent until proven guilty?
Incorrect again, actually. The evidentiary standard for civil penalties is not "innocent until proven guilty", but rather "a preponderance of evidence". And in any case, a person who has on more than one occasion set a fair market price for an item, only to change it to a fraction of that value immediately before the sale concluded would certainly be found guilty by any fair jury in the country. There are countless examples of people being found guilty and imprisoned on even less evidence. Would you like to hear some? I don't regularly buy and sell krono or expensive items, so I don't really have a dog in this fight, but the fact remains that DBG has monetized the game heavily, and thus has a degree of interest in supressing this sort of behavior, if only to avoid legal exposure of their own. The attitude that there "just isn't any solution" is absurd. Certainly there are grey areas and fringe cases, but DBG can do what countless other firms have done in similar situations: set up a system to review and adjudge complaints.
Silly rabbit, everyone is an internet lawyer according to the preponderance of evidence displayed daily.
That would incur a labor cost, while caveat emptor is absolutely free to them. The result should be obvious.
That's why I suggested adding separating commas to bazaar prices (like 1,000,000 instead of 1000000). Never suggested there isn't any solution; in fact I suggested a very simple one. It's pretty amazing to me that you think listing EQ bazaar prices in a "deceptive" way will somehow amount to civil litigation. I agree it's obviously intentional (most of the time) but attempting to both prove intent and enforce some kind of penalty for this behavior is a hilarious suggestion.
Don't shift the goalposts. I made no statement about the propensity or likelihood of litigation; I merely stated that such behavior meets the legal test for fraud. Furthermore, DBG could certainly take action based on any standard of proof they so desire. Essentially everyone in this thread admits it's meant to be intentionally deceptive; the notion that intent would be "impossible to prove" is indeed absurd. Would a random EQ player ever attempt to sue another over one bad transaction? Highly unlikely, yes. Would some tort attorney attempt to collate a large number of such complaints into a class action suit against DBG for negligence? Still unlikely --- yet I've seen far more tenuous actions wind up in court. All this is beside the point. Many minor crimes are never prosecuted. They're still crimes. And no amount of snarky sarcasm will change that.
The notion that players should not be allowed to intentionally deceive one another in a game in which people role play as rogues is absurd. As is the notion that such deception is somehow a crime. It's a game, and the items have no value. No one is being defrauded. This is a customer service/player retention issue at best, not anything more than that.
Fraud != Ignorance The player said s/he wanted to buy an item for 4199 plat. It is up to the seller to determine if that price is acceptable to engage a transaction with that individual. No fraud here. Move along.
So you believe people should be able to commit real-world crimes, so long as they're "role-playing a rogue"? Interesting. This isn't 1995. The courts have long since established that virtual items have value, and are bound by the same body of law as physical ones. One recent virtual object (an NFT collage) recently sold for nearly $70,000,000. Try convincing the buyer that it has no value.
Man, your head would have blown up if you had played Everquest PVP where people could kill you and take your stuff. It's a game.
Try to keep your argument in the same lane unless you want to be so easily dismissed. Need to keep the same context. I assume you're of the same mind that people should not be allowed toy guns of any fashion since it enables people to freely and without punishment, commit the bad dead dead act? Okay then
True in general, but irrelevant. If one party to a sale can prove they had "good faith" ignorance of the terms of that sale, they can void the transaction, even without any fraud involved. However, if they can demonstrate their ignorance was the result of intentional acts by the other party, then it becomes fraud by deception. In one case I know of, a seller voided a securities contract and collected compensatory damages, simply because the terms of the sale had been moved deeper within a normally-standard contract form. They then attempted to show this change was made with intent to defraud them -- which would have entitled them to additional punitive damages. The buyer was able to counter this only by showing a large number of internal emails demonstrating their non-fraudulent motivation for the non-standard contract.
The situations are far from analogous, given that the terms by which another player could "take your stuff" were nondeceptive and clearly disclosed. This was also before DBG began selling krono for hard currency, inarguably connecting them -- and, by extension, all items purchaseable with krono -- with hard, real-world value. My point hasn't moved an iota. Fraud is fraud, whether punished or not. Sorry, but there is absolutely zero connection between that, and a buyer intentionally attempting to deceive sellers to gain items at far below market price.
On live, Krono is generally going between 2-2.3 million. If I have only 250k to my name, am I attempting fraud by creating an off line barter to buy a Krono for 250k Plat? Furthermore if I place the value of a Krono to me at 250k instead of 2 million, am I committing fraud? The market determines the price of an item. I personally determine how much I want to spend on an item. If the seller chooses to accept my terms instead of the market rate, that is on the seller. Again. There is no fraud here. ps- This is a game. People should get better at the game, be more aware, or get out of the house every now and then if a legit bazaar transaction is causing them this much grief and anxiety
DPG sells Krono for game time. Players are the ones who have set an in-game currency amount to it. Players connected them. Not DPG. Deception is not fraud. Nor is setting a price though want for an item. The game has ways to filter prices. One persons lack of awareness is not considered fraud. A price tag is set. It’s up to them to read it and accept it. Nor is there any correlation to people setting a price to an item in a game and committing real life crime. But you tried to tie them together anyway
So now we need to babysit people who sell to traders now??? Took me half a sec to figure out this was going on and to make sure I didn't fall for it... This is in no way scamming or fraud, it is simply a way for people to try to trick people into spending money they shouldn't. Is it pretty cheesy? Absolutely. Is it illegal in any way? Not even remotely.
Can't scam someone in the bazaar. At least not anymore. Back in the day you could ninjachange the price of an item without the buyer being 100% aware, not anymore. Set prices, advertised as such, and if accepted by the consumer is 199% at fault of the consumer. I suggest an awareness training class if you fall victim to such scams. Reading things thoroughly and a second glance before your purchase/sell never hurts.
