SK vs. Paladin Solo at 115

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Roguexx, Oct 8, 2021.

  1. Chaosflux Augur

    Give it enough time and its going to circle back and he'll be telling us stuns and holy forge is the key.
  2. Chaosflux Augur

    Show me a logfile of that happening because it certainly doesn't on live, I'll grant you it's plausible it could react oddly on zek and give you the benefit of the doubt.

    The game definitely should recognize original caster, it does do an origin check for them because it has to reference the caster for focii/healing adept part of its calculation, and the healing is attributed properly in the log file.
  3. Elemental Augur

    Incoming new video :)
  4. Chaosflux Augur

    That works too
  5. Bummak Journeyman

    Hehe, I feel the same way when I play my Pally. I started EQ playing a monk. Hated him, and he got deleted a week later. Almost quit playing, I hated that monk so bad, lol. But a friend convinced me to create another char, and he suggested an SK based on how he knew I liked my game play, that was in late 99, and that Troll SK is still my main, lol. The key with a Pally is to kill undead. As much as possible, leave the live stuff to other classes in your group, and you'll be awesome!
    Ezbro likes this.
  6. Wulfhere Augur

    You must be thinking of SKs as paladins do not get an Expanse equivalent.
    Maedhros likes this.
  7. Wulfhere Augur

    Nah. Procs fail the 10 mana requirement.

    Confluent Blessing
    8: Limit Min Mana Cost: 10

    As for Healing Light, the only way we have to frequent that is Blunted Blade strikes, which I do when the group is taking AE damage.
  8. Stymie Pendragon

    I hope you can see the enemies through your UI! That last video was impressive in that you could play at all with everything covering the screen. :)
  9. Tucoh Augur

    Right, they get a super version of Warrior's Precision line, while the SKs get a super version of the Warrior's Expanse line.

    I can't complain though, even if the Expanse line is a neutered version of what SKs get, without it I'd have no way to pulse AE aggro.
  10. Maedhros High King

    I think you're saying paladins get a super version of warrior concordant Precision?
    No bro, paladin version is a lot of things, but super is not one of them.
    Wulfhere likes this.
  11. Wulfhere Augur

    No, paladins do not. It's not a warriors vs knights comparison. SK have the best. War are 2nd best. Pal are last in this respect.
  12. Chaosflux Augur

    I mean the gap is alot smaller than it was when those lines were released though now. I could see where someone (specifically a warrior) would want the hot on theirs to not be rancid garbage like it is.
  13. Szilent Augur

    The paladin precision has the same trigger conditions as warrior Precision.

    The trigger for warriors is 7165 hate(override, so this part isn't resistible but also no mask/buff multiplier and the DD doesn't add any), a 3724 dd, and 6050 self HoT
    The trigger for paladins is 8833 hate(no override, so resistible, but mask & buff multis work and the stun adds to this), no DD - a stun instead, and 7657 group heal

    The differences are challenging to characterize as "super", but most of those things are plain better on the paladin side dans la vie. More hate, non-damage pass-through that helps CC sometimes, and an immediate heal that's not useless to re-proc.

    The most substantive difference from my perspective is that, just like SK's can, Paladins can recast theirs as it fades. Warriors cannot have full uptime, waiting on our 3 minute reuse is compulsory.
    Wulfhere likes this.
  14. Tucoh Augur

    I don't want to debate balance with a paladin, because the SKs are the true enemy here, but I'd trade the warrior's Precision line for the paladin's Blessing line in a heartbeat. I wouldn't trade the Warrior's Expanse line for the paladin's Blessing line, because warriors have so few ways of generating AE aggro.

    And I'd trade the warrior's Expanse line for the shadowknight's Disruptive line, because OF COURSE shadowknight's have the best version.
  15. Wulfhere Augur

    I don't recall seeing these two assertions before. I also do not believe they are correct.
  16. Chaosflux Augur

    Overrides being unresistable is true, even mobs that are immune to magic, as long as they aren't immune to hate effects (I can't think of an example but I know there was a mob at some point in I want to say TBL?) Will take full override value even if the spell itself is resisted

    Second assertion offhand I don't know I'd have to test that, I've not seen behavior that would indicate that's true, but I usually test hate values with mask/bold attacks etc off, the only times I've tested hate values with modifiers on I was testing brilliant/glorious and sk spears versus crush/terrors
  17. Maedhros High King

    To me, some critical factors when it comes to Warrior vs Paladin and SKs Harmonious lines are the avenues of application and frequency of procs.

    For a warrior, there is no question that you are running expanse or precision on cooldown if you're tanking. I mean, its not like you have to load the abilities, they're right there, on one of your hotbars full time.

    For a paladin, and a SK, you have to load the spell on your spell bar.
    Thats a big freakin deal to me.
    If a spell is going to live on my spellbar, it needs to be able to pay rent.

    I don't play my paladin like I'm a warrior, entirely reliant on outside heals. I heal the crap out of myself. All of my heals do absolutely nothing to proc a charge on my Harmonious. Strike 1.

    As a paladin, my AE agro is inarguably the weakest of the 3 tank classes (other than that monster splash agro amirite?) Meaning I am usually going to tank 1 mob on raids so long as the other tanks are handling their assignments, which I expect them to. So since I am just tanking that 1 mob and healing the hell out of myself, there are definitely far fewer incoming heals on me than the other tank classes. Both by virtue of the warriors being nearly entirely reliant on outside healing, and the nature of SKs that they tend to tank multiples far more than the other classes, I get healed less than other tanks. Strike 2.

    Just looking at the pure stats of what happens when someone does get around to healing me, its a pretty small chunk of agro and the group heal is at best, meh. The stun? HAHAHAH. I would be far better served using that precious spellbar slot on a group heal if that was needed, or a stun if that was needed, or additional agro spells if that was needed. The phrase is "jack of all trades, master of none"? Paladin harmonious would definitely not rate a face card in a deck. Strike 3, you're out.

    On the other hand, SK harmonious is so powerful that they often can't use it or they risk being forced to tank every single mob.

    All in all, warriors get by far the best shake when it comes to Harmonious spells/abilities.
    Ozon, Wulfhere and Tucoh like this.
  18. Chaosflux Augur

    I mean alot of the paladins harmonious usefulness is on a spectrum of how in tune your group mates/raid mates are as well, there's plenty of times if I am in a caster group with a druid or a tank group with light heal coverage but say another Paladin (my normal tank group) where after a hard hitting AE goes off my druid heal partner will pop a Rejuvilation quick heal on me then follow that with Luna, because the combo of the harmonious group heal and the Luna is better than them having to wait to cast Luna twice, and if I wave in there it's a solid chunk if not completely topping us off (especially if I have group armor going)

    Or myself and another Paladin will Burst each other quick to give a quick group heal to top off someone we weren't expecting them to take damage or cover them if a bad AE hit or the cleric just Arb'd. I usually keep my heal partner or Paladin partner on Xtar 12 for quicker acquisition since I have xtars bound to keys.

    It usually ends up being at the end of a night a not insignificant % of my total heals output especially on some events if we have multiple people tanking simultaneously. It's certainly worth a spell slot, I generally get more out of it in a night than I do from Wave since by the time that casts a surge/splash has probably healed most of what the wave was going to.

    Like yeh its not omfg, but it's hardly as out of balance as it was at during EOK where it was like a 3rd or less of the others. Like I don't think we are going to get that line changed at this point.
    Wulfhere likes this.
  19. p2aa Augur

    I disagree with this. Warrior AE aggro is not better than paladin one atm.
  20. Maedhros High King

    This is some pretty unorthodox gameplay you're describing.
    I guess everyone is a product of their experience.
    On the very, very rare occasions that I am in a caster group it is as a primary healer or to supplement heal for a druid because they can't keep up with incoming ae damage.

    The other part that you're talking about with a paladin partner is pretty bizarre. Let me get this straight, maybe I misunderstand. You will heal the other paladin in your group to trigger the heal charge proc on his or her harmonious to heal another person in your group? Huh? Why not burst heal the person who needs the heal in the first place and skip the middle man? I mean, you're using burst on the other paladin right? So 18k base heal on burst, on the other paladin, to trigger a 7600 group heal on the other person in the group? Why not utilize your Dicho for instant and far more substantial group heal? Not to mention that you're targeting another paladin to hit burst on for his or her puny heal charge and then have to reacquire your initial target instead of just snapping off a much much bigger wave heal without changing targets.
    This is pretty freakin strange imho.
    Do I misunderstand? Maybe the other paladin is not in your group. How do you know that a random person in the other paladins group needs a very small top off heal, and also why is that your responsibility? Why wouldnt you focus on your group and simply twin cast splash when an ae hits the entire raid?

    Maybe you're out here playing chess while I'm just playing checkers I guess.