The perfect synergized groups for raids?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Eugenes, Aug 18, 2021.

  1. Eugenes New Member

    I've been experimenting with certain groups in raids, and I am just wanting to know what is the perfect group make up to maximize dps for both melle, and casters in a raid situation. There are so many synergy procs that make a big boost to overall dps.
  2. Cadira Augur

    I imagine melee is sham bard zerk bl rng monk. I believe rangers offer more adps than rogues but rogues benefit more than most melee classes from the adps so it's a catch 22. If you have garbage rangers than swap the ranger for a rogue.

    Really not an expert on casters but I think a lot of people stack necros in one of the caster groups with a druid, chanter and optionally bard and then the other casters groups are probably just chanter druid and an even mix of mages and wizards and a bard if you have tons of them lying around!
  3. Ythera Augur

    For caster groups, Druid/Enchanter/Bard + 3 DPS casters. The bard and enchanter are going to generate the bulk of the adps, with druid adding some with their aura and black wolf.
  4. strongbus Augur

    my guild for melee is normal bard/sham/4 melee dps(zerker/ranger/bst/monk/rog/etc)
    caster is druid/ench/4 casters.
  5. Tolzol Augur

    Pretty much this. Although i still like the idea of deleting zerkers to fix this issue. #setmefree
    RPoo and Cadira like this.
  6. Lisard Silly

    assuming its a perfect world and everyone understands their class and how to push buttons good under any scenario. but ultimately the best groups synergy, from my experience, is that of players who gel well together VS what classes true potential/offerings are.

    what I would aim for is this.

    Tank Group
    War
    War
    CLR
    CLR
    SK
    PAL

    Melee Group
    Shaman
    Bard
    Beastlord
    Berserker
    Ranger
    >Beastlord (high HHE upkeep / the overall group potential increases)>Berserker>Ranger >Monk/Rogue (these two classes would benefit the most in the group)

    Caster Group
    Druid>Shaman (assuming both healers know how to dps and heal theres a lot of potential here outside of herpderp blackwolf / shaman epic for both the group and the dru/shm personal dps)
    Enchanter
    Enchanter>Bard (many parse dives from TBL -> CoV show double enchanter providing great ADPS potential then enc/brd when applied/coordinated properly, the arguement for "bUt BaRd" ultimately applies to the magician/pets. The bards personal dps also suffers under this group compared to a melee group)
    Necromancer>Magician>Wizard
    Necromancer>Magician>Wizard
    Magician

    Necro group as their ADPS timing requirements are offset from Mage/wizard
    Druid
    Enchanter
    Enchanter
    Necromancer
    Necromancer
    Necromancer
  7. Axel Furry Hats OP

    Tank:
    SK
    SK
    SK
    PAL
    CLR
    SHM
    3 SK epics = no tanks dying, more HP/S from SK epic than any other ability in game. Can probably use a bard instead of shaman. Warriors only give AC & Imp Command to the group, and honestly, knights tank just as well. 2 clerics isn't needed when you've got 100% uptime on SK epic.

    Caster:
    DRU
    BRD
    ENC
    MAG (mage synergy + druid NFW too strong, mage required in all caster groups)
    Any casterx2, if you go with a necro, then necrox2, I think mage synergy works on necro fire dots too, so that's super OP.

    Melee:
    SHM
    BRD
    BST
    BER
    RNG
    MNK/ROG
  8. FranktheBank Augur


    A little surprised by the 2nd ench over a mage. I guess the 2nd IoG and stuff out does the mage dps + synergy
  9. The real Sandaormo Augur

    Warriors can just all retire apparently. I been wanting to main change but Guild leader won't let me.
    I will send her here to read this. Appreciate your knowledge and help.
  10. Symbius Augur

    Melee Group
    Shaman - Heals / Spires / Epics
    Bard - Songs / Epics
    Beastlord - HHE group support
    Ranger - Cheetah Fang + synergy
    Beserker - Crippling Blows synergy
    Monk - Weapon damage synergy

    To hell with the Rogues and their silly proc synergy.
  11. Nolrog Augur

    Need a bard in every group.
    Elyssanda, Cailen and code-zero like this.
  12. Silu Elder


    Mage synergy doesn't impact fire DoTs, and necro synergy isn't nearly as good as mage synergy for the mages (30% overcrit when blood nuke is cast, which is typically when ITC is down vs mage synergy from RS which is going off all the time), so you are hurting mage DPS by putting them in the necro group. Druid GW also doesn't impact DoTs, so that again helps the enchanter and druid more than everyone else.

    Since the necro epic nerf cutting 18% off necro innate DoT crit rates, bards have become way more important to increase crit rate modifiers for necro groups. While the enchanter IoG adds a huge bump (13% crit rate, 130% DoT overcrit damage) for 2 minutes out of 12, bards add an extra 27% crit rate + 300% procrate mod (FE+Epic) 2 out of every 3 minutes, plus aria/aura damage, so for a necro group I actually would vote for:

    Druid
    Enc
    Bard
    Nec x 3

    Double IoG and more Haze helps the druid most of all, so a high DPS druid would probably love to have a 2nd enchanter.
  13. Zeus Journeyman

    Have tested, Mage synergy does enhance necro fire dot ticks
  14. Sancus Augur

    It does, but it only focuses a single tick of the fire DoT in the highest debuff slot on the mob, so its impact is relatively small.
    While Mages would likely rather have a second Mage than a Necro, the impact is fairly negligible either way. The primary benefit of Synergy to Mages is our own, which we can reliably use to focus our Of Many nuke. A second Mage's synergy will focus Chaotic, Spear, or Bolt (from Orb), all of which have notably lower base damages, not to mention that the synergies will sometimes overwrite each other.
    The main issue with a Mage being in a Necro group is different burn times. That's very fight dependent, though; some fights the difference is negligible.

    The primary benefit of having a Mage in the Necro group is that, while an equally skilled Necro would do more DPS in most circumstances, Mages don't use debuff slots. A secondary benefit is Theft of Essence. Necros generally don't focus on their pets, but a Necro pet with Theft, Bard songs (War March/Aria), and Ferocity legs assuming the pet actually swings (an admittedly bold assumption) will actually perform quite well. It's not a huge consideration still, but likely more important than the differences between synergies.
    This is a good take and exposes some of the subtleties of a second Enchanter versus a Bard. The sweet spot for two Enchanters is a four minute fight, which is exactly the duration of two IoGs. As fights extend, the crit rate benefit from bards becomes more impactful. The extent to which Necros (and other casters) need Epic/FE to sustain crit rate also depends on the number of Rangers in a raid.
    While two Chromatic Haze uses will be significant for NFW, it's worth noting that those two (or four, in the case of two Enchanters) ticks are still a relatively small portion of a Druid's damage over a longer event. This is especially true for Druids that are maximizing DPS through their other DoTs and nukes throughout an event, which most Druids don't really do.

    Assuming a Druid is doing that, though, they have larger issues with crit chance than DD casters (Mages/Wizards) and Necros. Great Wolf, CoP, Enchanter Spire, and Druid Spire, among other effects, only affect DD crit chance, and Druids have lower passive DoT crit chance (56%) than Necros (62%). Enchanters fare even worse DoT crit chance wise, with only a 34% passive rate and no activated DoT crit chance boosts other than IoG. Additionaly, Druids/Enchanters have no SPA 124 effects of their own, whereas Necros do. Finally, Quick Time is extremely potent for Druids in multi-dotting scenarios (e.g., AoW) where Horde/Sunshock being instant cast notably increases their ability to maintain DoTs on multiple targets. In general for DoT classes, Quick Time is good for multidotting.

    Other considerations as far as Bard vs 2nd Enchanter:
    • As was sort of mentioned, Mage pets and swarm pets perform substantially better with a bard. That said, the more lag there is, the less this matters.
    • Quick Time is more impactful for classes with shorter spell cast times, both because its a flat reduction and because its impact is diminished by spell haste.
    • Wizards that melee and AE will benefit more from Bards than Wizards that don't melee or AE.
    • Stacking Enchanters provides diminishing returns in terms of IoG and Auras.
    In summary, some things like synergies aren't that important, and there are quite a few caster group makeups that will perform well. A second Enchanter vs a Bard depends on the group makeup, the event, how group members are playing, and lag. That said, there are a lot of situations where a Bard will add more to a caster group than a second Enchanter, especially for guilds that have longer fight times or that lack the ADPS coordination to maintain high crit chance in the absence of a Bard. Even in RoI, though, my group (which is Enc / Dru / Brd / Mag / Mag / Wiz) would do less damage with a second Enchanter than a Bard over the course of a night.
    RPoo, Cailen, Szilent and 4 others like this.
  15. Windance Augur

    I think this is the key areas where my guild needs help. "ADPS coordination to maintain high crit chance"
  16. Alnitak Augur

    Not to argue, just a small nit-pick: MAG pet aura Arcane Disctillect adds 15% to pet melee damage consistently, so for longer fights (past burn AA's) necro pets would do more damage. Although, "It's not a huge consideration" as you wrote.
  17. Silu Elder


    Arcane Distillect:
    7: Increase Hit Damage by 15% (v185)

    Theft of Essence (mage proc from Of Many or construct nukes):
    5: Increase Chance to Avoid Melee by 28%
    6: Increase Max HP by 25000
    8: Increase Current HP by 25000
    10: Increase ATK by 3200
    11: Increase Melee Haste by 25%

    It's really not worth planning around increasing necro pet DPS through mage bonuses, due to the impact of lag on pet performance on raids. To give a sense of non-swarm necro pet DPS on raids, here is my pet from the last raid night (rogue pet, EM29, mage gear+weapons, bard in group, strong auspice rotation all fights):
    #52 Shady 240.4m@29851 (30158 in 7971s)
  18. Sancus Augur

    I didn't explicitly say it, but I was talking about primary Necro pets. Sigil of Decay has a 25% SPA 185 Hit Damage modifier, which takes precedence over Arcane Distillect.

    Arcane Distillect does benefit Necro swarm pet. With Theft, they do more damage per cast, without accounting for Conjurer's Synergy, than RS pets, so if you're talking about them that's definitely a factor. I kind of avoided talking about Necro swarms, since I don't know if using them is optimal post-revamp (it may be with a Mage in group; I just don't know).
    The main way to fix that is to use ADPS/burn abilities frequently and often, rather than saving them. Auspice rotations are particularly important - it can be TB'ed contiguously at the start of an event and MGB'ed again contiguously after nine minutes. For very specific caster ADPS coordination, I do have a guide, but just using things early and on cooldown will generally outperform what a lot of guilds are doing.
    RPoo, Metanis, Cailen and 1 other person like this.
  19. Silu Elder

    The easiest way to get help here on this topic is to (most likely) post a particular group makeup and an event where you need a plan, and/or to describe your raid team makeup, if it isn't optimized.

    Edit: And read the guides linked above. They are good. And work out with your particular group a plan for who is doing what when (HHE effect coordination for melees, crit rate / crit mod stacking for casters, Enc/Dru coordination for NFW, etc.).
  20. Silu Elder


    I believe the answer is that they are not better than Ignite Intellect (which is the threshold necro DoT in most CoV content with the Shield of Destiny requirements), even with a mage in group and without lag. A long evening burning stuff in CoV and ToV group content. Here is my swarm pet DPS as one necro grouped with 3 mages (so constant arcane distillect and theft of essence). I use the swarms to help the mages to maximize the use of Of Many, to take advantage of 100% theft uptime:

    /GU Combined: A Coldain enforcer in 5433s, 6,167.3m @1135156 | #8 Siluuael`s pet 214.2m@39419 (40196 in 5328s) [3.47]