Some suggestions for making Rogues more enjoyable in future TLPs.

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by WokeCat, Jul 30, 2021.

  1. Stymie Pendragon

    I think the thrust of the argument is more about losing sneak/hide capabilities from original to now on TLP's. It sounds like Rogues can't do what they could in era which doesn't fit the way that time locked progression is supposed to work by definition.
  2. Machen New Member


    I really don't think that's the case. There is a reason they added SoS as an ability. As far as I know, rogues never had the ability to hide from see invis mobs prior to SoS. It is possible they added see invis to some mobs that didn't have it before, and that's what people are experiencing. I remember on live, playing a rogue in the hole in 2000, sneaking down to recover corpses, and if there was a rat with see invis you were screwed. Unless you made a halfling brell worshipping rogue so that you had faction with the rats, which were the only mobs that could have see invis. Even back then there were mobs that would see through sneak/hide.
    Wulfhere and Accipiter like this.
  3. Niskin Clockwork Arguer

    Machen is right, there were always mobs that could see through sneak/hide back in the day. Specifically the ghouls in 4C in Sebilis. I know this because it was the reason another Rogue taught me to use sneak to go behind them. I had to get back to the group when I died and we didn't have a Cleric.

    The same for the mobs on the lower floor. Sometimes I could make it all the way from the zone-in to the lower floor zone-out without being aggroed, but not always. I don't think the fungus people see invis, but some of the frogs did for sure.
    Wulfhere likes this.
  4. Vulken9 Journeyman

    Slightly off-topic, but did we always get the added text about whether a creature could see you or not? I want to say the added text came a bit later and before that we just looked for scowling vs indifferent cons (which is still there). I think it was pretty easy to miss before they added the text, but I could be mistaken.
  5. Accipiter Old Timer


    Good question. I have to believe it was. Otherwise we would have been completely blind.
  6. WokeCat Augur

    There absolutely 100% was. But they weren't wide spread like they are now. Not only is this corroborated by my own memory, but it's mirrored on P99 in live-time.

    It didn't say "you suspect this creature can see you" but it would show you by saying they were dubious, threatening, scowling etc. This is how Dark Elves used their racial hide and determined whether or not it worked. Would con things around them.
  7. Wulfhere Augur

    No.

    Correct.

    Also rogues later got unique messages for hide and sneak attempts for quality of life. E.g.

    You are as quiet as a cat stalking its prey.
    You are as quiet as a herd of running elephants.
    You have hidden yourself from view.
    You failed to hide yourself.
    Vulken9 likes this.
  8. Accipiter Old Timer


    Ah, yeah. I remember now.
  9. Accipiter Old Timer


    I think any classes or races that can sneak got those same messages.
  10. Wulfhere Augur

    Nope. My bard and ranger never have for example.
  11. Accipiter Old Timer


    I stand corrected. :)
  12. Shakara Augur

    Yet those changes significantly increased the player experience of the game. Why would you not make the game more fun by making changes? For instance I see no reason not to give rogues Escape at lvl 1. It fits them making them thematically much more slippery, it is a very low effort change, and it would shake up the game by introducing new strategies.
  13. Machen New Member


    Speak for yourself. With the possible exception of changes to the VP groundspawns, the rest of those changes decreased my experience. The game was a lot more fun when it was actually challenging.
  14. Triconix Augur

    Your first problem is thinking that sitting at a camp waiting hours for a mob that can be sniped in 1-2 nukes is challenging. Your second problem is thinking anything in Kunark is actually enjoyable and fun.

    Better off just skipping anything before Luclin and spare yourself the loser krono KSers
  15. Triconix Augur

    It's very hard to confirm what they had in Kunark because even posts conflict a lot from the time periods. Many changes were made so if it was as people "remember" (I can pull many articles on how good human memory actually is), it's possible it was changed within a few months.

    Complaining about something that has been in place for possibly 18-20 years is like complaining we don't play in Win XP with a dial up.
  16. Shakara Augur

    You are misusing the word challenging. The correct word I think is accessible. While you can make something more or less accessible by making it more or less challenging that's not what happened here. The act of handing in is not hard anyone can do it. Having the time to devote to stand at a certain spot for hours on end or be the one with the fastest internet connection is not hard either but not possible for every player. Gating content behind designs that give the player no in-game agency is poor design.
  17. Machen New Member


    Ironic that you are arguing this in a thread that is specifically about increasing the power of a specific class, with the OP suggesting abilities that will significantly increase rogue dps, resulting in content being less difficult.

    It's all related.

    VP key pieces are issues of access, until the difficulty of access results in less gear being obtained. At that point it's also a limiter of player power and leads to the content being more difficult. Same with limitations on how many epics can be completed -- while it's easy to look at that as an access issue, a server where 100% of players have their epics completed has less difficult content as a result than a server with only 25%.
  18. Shakara Augur

    This is all true. However this does not make it good design to limit gear to players by arbitrary means. being the guy with the really cool gear because your autoclicker happen to register before everyone else cheapens what makes good items cool. A more appropriate response would be to balance the TLP raid content around the increase in player power. Which to be fair they did with things like MoTM. If they wanted to push it further they could give more abilities to group and raid content as there are many ways to make encounters harder without just mear stat buffs as you see with more modern EQ ex. Splitting mobs, Mobs that reflect damage, Short term exceptional buffs, and crippling debuffs.
  19. Wulfhere Augur

    A lot of changes and remembrances can be checked against EQ patch history. Yes, searching for confirmation can take some time even so.

    https://everquest.allakhazam.com/news_archives.html
    https://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches.html

    This one is easier for older topics (like those discussed here):

    http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/
  20. Atomos Augur

    Imagine thinking there is even an ounce of difficulty in Everquest, lol. Sad. If you actually cared about difficulty, you sure as hell wouldn't be playing this game.