Some suggestions for making Rogues more enjoyable in future TLPs.

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by WokeCat, Jul 30, 2021.

  1. Green_Mage Augur

    I played a rogue on p99 kunark/velious. We were always top of the dps meters. It's what made the class fun. They don't have much -- but they are the best dps in traditional raids. Its what makes the class balanced. Rogues can't do much except open doors, help CR, and /assist with melee dps. So they are really good at the last one...better than monks for example.

    That dynamic, rogue being the best melee dps (slightly higher than monk), needs to be restored for the class to be truly enjoyable. I kind of gave up on the rogue class for TLP to be honest. It seems like the only reason to play one is to get easier access to BiS weapons that no one else wants.
  2. jiri_ Augur

    Once upon a time you could put Backstab on cooldown for a frontal attack with your mainhand piercer. It did normal attack damage, and couldn't double attack. It was a huge pain in the neck when aggro ping-ponged and your backstab turned into a regular pierce.
  3. Accipiter Old Timer


    It was originally range slot useable, for the record.
  4. Accipiter Old Timer


    Hmmm... I wasn't aware of that. Which ones?
  5. Accipiter Old Timer


    FWIW, bards recently got kick.
    Skuz likes this.
  6. WokeCat Augur

    That actually qualifies me more because I main an Enchanter, and yet I'm advocating for a class, that by my own words, is really bad. I have also leveled a Cleric, Monk, Shaman, Shadow Knight, Bard and now a Rogue to level 60 on TLP, and this gives me more insight to how bad the class actually is. Someone who "mains" a Rogue may be completely oblivious to how subpar their DPS and general lack of utility actually is.

    I didn't call for flat DPS buffs, which would be easy to do by simply giving them innate duelist at lower levels, but rather, for giving them back some of what made them useful or even "fun" to play. Leveling a Rogue in Sol B and Guk is amazing, because you can invis anywhere. Leveling a Rogue in KC and Sebilis? Not so much, due to the fact that you can't walk passed 5 mobs without aggro'ing one.

    But I do appreciate the solution to solving the stealth problem in lower level dungeons like Karnor's and Sebilis being that you can just level the class to 60 (a requirement for most raid guilds), join a raid guild, and get a raid item that will give you a mask that has Gather Shadows on it. That'll definitely help the average level 45 Rogue who needs someone to come to the zone-line of Karnor's Castle and pick him up since he can't stealth passed the entrance mobs to join his group at LCY.

    Yes, on P99 hide/sneak actually works everywhere, and they also double backstab every time. On TLP, half the normal mobs in Kunark will break through hide/sneak, and double backstab is an ultra rare proc that still has a good chance of missing, so it appears on the log very seldom.
  7. WokeCat Augur

    It seems to be entirely random. In this instance there are two Drolvargs:

    [IMG]

    In this instance, the high level Drolvarg doesn't see through Hide/Sneak, but the Lower Level one does. This is right at the entrance, but these random see invis mobs are scattered throughout the entire zone. It's even worse in Sebilis.

    It really feels like Rogue Hide/Sneak serves no purpose, especially on a server where other classes can buy a Ring of Stealthy Travel for 200p. I would literally rather have that ring instead of Rogue Stealth since it has no cool-down, and shares the same level of effectiveness while allowing the user to move at their normal speed. Unfortunately Rogues don't have access to this item.

    The movement speed of regular invis isn't just a quality of life thing either, it actually serves real purpose. There's many areas in the game where you need to levitate while INVIS to reach certain areas. You try levitating with hide/sneak on and you simply sink like a stone.

    Edit: I just conned some more. From the entrance of KC I can see 3 Drolvargs that have see invis. They are all Sentries, but not all Sentries have see invis.
  8. Machen New Member


    It's very useful in a lot of places. Because sneak/hide works on both undead and non undead mobs, rogues can transition areas where there is a mix of mobs. No other class can conveniently do that on their own without another class helping them to double invis. Ring of Stealthy Travel won't help with undead mobs.

    Nothing will get you past see invis mobs other than sneak and good timing, until SoS comes in, but that's a limitation for every class in the game, not just rogues.
  9. Atomos Augur


    I don't think this is true. When a mob sees invis, you have to walk behind it, as Sneak will still work. I'm pretty sure its always been this way before AAs?
  10. WokeCat Augur

    Would you not agree that it would be reasonable to maybe consider making changes that allow Rogues to stealth passed basic Drolvargs and Frogloks in Karnor's Castle and Sebilis? A change like this would not make Rogues over-powered, it would simply make them a stealth-class who is able to join their group deep in a dungeon without requiring said group to escort them? Or maybe even assist with CRs? It wouldn't be a huge change, but it would give Rogues a little something that makes them feel special and unique.

    True story, my group wiped at ABC. Now I'm one of those players who doesn't mind running everywhere (I played on P99), so I volunteer to run ahead of everyone else and get to Sebilis and drag their bodies because we have a Cleric at the zone-line who is ready to resurrect everyone. Well, I get to Sebilis only to discover that I can't even get passed the entrance level frogloks, and instead have to wait for our Shadow Knight to come and save the day while I sit there looking and feeling dumb.

    Since then I've also had to sit on the bench and watch Monks handle CRs. It just feels really bad, and really unnecessary.
  11. WokeCat Augur

    It is true. I played on P99 for about a year and a half before this TLP launched. I actually provided evidence in an earlier post, but I now see that that post has interestingly been removed. I guess I would be better off posting on a throw-away account while using a VPN instead of posting with the account that I actually spend money on.
  12. Machen New Member


    I don't see the need to give rogues something they get soon anyway if you just keep playing. There is meant to be progression in progression.
  13. WokeCat Augur

    That's a flawed argument because the content will no longer be relevant when it happens. We can try to paint an idyllic scenario where high level Rogues in Planes of Power are going to come back after getting enough AAs and stealth passed these Frogloks and Drolvargs in a way that is meaningful or impactful, but I have already played on Aradune, and I know that this will never happen because players won't even be interested in these zones at that stage in the game.
  14. Machen New Member


    That's the nature of progression. I am not concerned at all whether rogues ever are able to SoS past Drolvargs in Kunark. They can SoS past see invis mobs in PoP, and do exactly what you are describing -- get to their group deep in a dungeon without coth. The class functionality comes in, less than a year in on every TLP. In the meanwhile they get to actually learn how sneak works, and can still usually accomplish the same thing with a little care.
    Tweakfour17 likes this.
  15. WokeCat Augur

    Well, Rogues always could stealth passed mobs in Kunark. And now they can't.

    And this same logic is not applied equally or at all to other classes. Do you remember Paladins resurrecting other players at level 30? No? Then why are they able to now? Shouldn't they have to wait until the expansion where this changed was made? Same with Rangers and Spirit of Wolf, Shadow Knights and Feign Death etc.

    Shouldn't these classes have to wait until the expansion where these changes were made that gave them access to these abilities at a much lower level? No? Because this is the exact logic you are applying to the Rogue class, except worse, because Rogue stealth actually worked in real Kunark. Level 30 Paladins and Level 28 Rangers were never resurrecting anyone or able to cast SoW.
  16. Accipiter Old Timer


    Ah, I forgot rogues don't have SoS until much later. Machen mentioned it in the next post.
  17. wade_watts Augur

    Rogues (at least not terrible ones) are already near the top of raid parses with monks and wizzys here nearing the end of Kunark. If your DPS sucks then perhaps its less about the class and more about your competence at this stage of the TLP. We all get that classic sucks for rogues, but they are fine now.
  18. Atomos Augur

    With that logic, why change respawn timers on epic spawns, since most epics will be useless a few expansions after Kunark? Why change the VP key when VP is only relevant during 1 expansion?

    Clearly DBG doesn't agree with your logic. Thankfully.
    Xanathol likes this.
  19. Machen New Member


    Exactly. I was against all those changes too.
  20. HekkHekkHekk Augur

    Rogues should get a twin stab if they have two daggers. Or even better, they should have a charge like ability that increase damage with velocity.