The Reason Why Some of us Are Frustrated with Daybreak Games

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Brontus, Jul 23, 2021.

  1. Gnothappening Augur

    Then you must be new to the forums. Hang around a while or do a search on krono, boxing, charm, monks, and probably a few others, and you will get tons of hits where people are just endlessly crying or calling for nerfs. I know because I have been on both sides of the arguments.

    As for the part about people using the forums as an outlet about the state of the game. A large problem with the game are these players. Karendune was probably when the crying reached its peak.

    So far the forum people (at times myself included) have brought us such wonderful things as mage pet nerfs, enchanter charm nerfs, enchanter stun nerfs, weaponized petitions, and several amazing posts calling for an end to kronos.

    My favorite two issues being weaponized petitions and a call for stopping the sale of kronos. I don't have hard numbers, but would be willing to bet at least 30% of the revenue from this game comes from krono purchases, especially considering kronos cost more than a regular sub. I personally eat krono to cover subs and only resort to paying for a sub directly if I have to. I have also bought krono from Daybreak to trade for in game items like when my mage was doing his epic. So krono are doing their job and are both entering and leaving circulation, but a large percentage of forum warriors would have to believe krono are responsible for all ills in the game. As for the weaponized petitions, it was very bad during Aradune, but seems to have died down some since. It still happens, but it isn't as bad.

    Some player input can be good, I'll grant you that. A place to post bugs. A place to post issues with raid encounters or possible tuning ideas. Maybe a place to post class improvements. Even a place for players to chat with each other and look for guilds and such. That being said, the vast majority of ideas by the player base are just bad. Many of them would kill the game. Forums and especially social media cause situations where the few that cry loudest can ruin things for the vast majority that are happy with something how it is.
  2. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    This entire thread is absurd.

    The devs spent more time than they should reading these forums as is, because most of them really are deeply invested in this game (and other than Absor, almost all started as players first). They spend their own time essentially off the clock fixing and researching stuff all the time.

    If not enough people care to support your complaint/suggestion/argument then it is because it isn't good enough to warrant it. It is not the job of the game developers to give you some avenue for every person in this game to whine about something and get a response.

    The entire premise is narcissistic and puerile.
  3. Magician9001 Augur

    I recently petitioned about winning a DPS race and not being awarded the kill credit. I provide CS/GM with the logs and post all the math and added up totals.

    The GM told me their logs said "another player won" I asked them to post the logs so i could see them and figure out why mine were wrong.

    The GM responded by saying i was Harassing him and to be careful or ill be banned.

    The Devs of this game do a decent job considering how understaffed they're. But dealing with this companies CS is like dealing like living in an Episode of the Twilight Zone, up is down, left is right, Training people that bot 24/7 will get you banned instantly but it takes them 6 months for some ineffective suspension wave against the botters.
  4. Karreck Somebody

    Okay, couple of issues with your idea.

    #1 - Addressing every customer idea, suggestion, or complaint on a One on One basis is impractical. Devs have a game to work on, that is their job. Spending their day responding to everybody takes time away from their actual work.

    #2 - Most ideas that come from players are dumb and this is a fact across all MMOs. From people demanding certain classes get buffs solely because it is their chosen class, to players insisting that the game be designed with their play style (and only their play style) in mind, most player suggestions are self benefit focused not whole game focused. Hell, we've seen no shortage of terrible ideas on these forums. And that is not even including the straight up troll ideas.

    #3 - Increased Dev interaction will not stop the complaining about feeling ignored. Take a player who is convinced that Paladins should be able to one shot any creature that is evil. They insist it fits with the lore and will increase the number of paying customers as a result. We can laugh at this suggestion and call it stupid (because it is), but the person suggesting it fully believes that his idea is correct. Should a Dev even acknowledge such a terrible idea? And if so, how long should the Dev continue to engage with the player? That player is convinced that he is right, so at some point the Dev is going to have to end the back and forth dialogue. Now this player is getting no responses to his ideas. So he comes to the forums complaining about being ignored. This analogy is not very removed from reality, we've seen it happen before with Dreamweaver.
  5. MustardonWatermelon Elder

    "We are confident in our findings and the account was not suspended in error."

    This can occur just from even the accusation of a player. You don't even have to be in any way involved whatsoever in what happened.

    At some point people are going to get tired of Daybreak's nonsense.
    Magician9001 likes this.
  6. Brontus EQ Player Activist

    The entire thread? Does that include your comments too?

    Please provide us with hard evidence for any of these claims. We don't know how much time if any EQ devs are spending reading the forums or if they are working on the game off the clock. You're just making assumptions with no way for the rest of us to ascertain their veracity. The devs can speak for themselves and don't need a white knight to do that for them.

    Question: Are the forums a democracy where the ideas that get the most votes from forum viewers get automatically sent to the devs for immediate attention?

    I had no idea this was the case. Please provide me evidence that customer feedback/suggestions posted on the forums work this way.

    The purpose of my post was to stimulate debate on finding better mechanisms where both devs and players could engage in productive back and forth dialogue to make the game better. You purport to know a lot about the internal workings at DGB. How exactly do you know what the "job" of the devs is?

    Making ad hominem attacks is a sign of a person who has no valid argument.

    You seem quite content with the status quo on these forums. How dare anyone come in and upset the apple cart and propose systems and better working conditions for devs which better facilitate player to dev dialogue and make for a better game.

    Have a nice day! :)
  7. kizant Augur

    I'm sure some devs do browse the forums to see what people are talking about and it's important that they do. Many of the devs don't play EQ but they understand the goals they have for the game and what outcomes were expected for specific changes.

    They likely don't want to get involved in most discussions since they usually devolved into fighting and arguing and would rather sit back and read. So, I'd continue to leave feedback here and just assume someone will read the topics that come up routinely or have lots of comments. Customer service is a completely different and unrelated job. Go to them if you got charged too much on your credit card or can't login. That's about it.
    -----Cinexa----- and Skuz like this.
  8. Brontus EQ Player Activist

    I never said that every idea, suggestion, or complain needs to be addressed on a one to one basis by a dev. Go back and read my original post. Don't misrepresent what I said.

    If the devs don't read the forums, how will they know what is going in in the trenches in EQ? How will the devs assigned to TLP servers even know what to "work" on if they have no contact with players and are aware of current issues? Perhaps the forums should be removed completely then they devs won't be tempted to waste their time reading the forums and get back to work.

    Gauging the mood of your customers and knowing how the feel about your product is important for any business and is considered work. Customers provide valuable insight and intel for businesses.

    Of course not all players have good ideas but many players do. Painting all forum posters with the same brush is not fair or wise. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater is not the answer. Many players post legitimate bug reports that have still not been addressed.

    The bizarre scenario you outlined is the exception and not the rule.

    You've created a series of straw man arguments that do not accurately represent my position or the intent of my original post which was to find better ways to improve the game via better player to developer dialogue and for Daybreak Games to hire more devs so that they are not overworked and have more time to interact with players.
  9. Machen New Member


    There are tons of ways the devs can know what is going on in the trenches without visiting the forums.

    They have tools to see how content is being utilized. Where players are spending their time. How many players are logging in, or not logging in.

    Most of them actually play the game and so can also see first hand from their own experience what's going on from a player perspective.

    They interact with the live playerbase extensively every year during beta leading up to new expansions.

    They have discord, which I see far more devs using to comment and discuss than here, even if it's mostly non eq related things.

    They just reestablished their player council so they have a team of players to interact with about projects.

    And, they have staff whose job it is to interact with the community and bring issues to the devs' attention. Dreamweaver did that all the time. Getting the mood of your curstomers and knowing how they feel about your product IS work, and it is important, but it ISN'T the devs' job, nor is it necessarily within the skillset of a software / game developer. There are other people better suited to the task. In fact, there's a pretty extensive history in eq with some devs talking to the community who probably shouldn't have been, due to lack of people skills. Others got better over the years.

    The forums are a pretty time consuming form of communication. The devs would have to wade through a ton of unhelpful posts to find one post worth their attention. Better to let someone who's job it is to do that work do that work, and let the devs develop.
    -----Cinexa----- likes this.
  10. Tweakfour17 Augur

    Maybe not all the forums work the way you're describing, but the bug forums set out to work in a similar way
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/how-to-report-and-upvote-bugs.260061/
  11. Ravanta Suffer Augur

  12. Karreck Somebody

    Ah, but that was your obvious implication. Let's refresh ourselves on what you said.

    So if every idea, suggestion, or complaint is not addressed by "meaningful back and forth dialogue", then the person making said suggestion, idea, or complaint would feel like they are being ignored. And you are quite clear with your assertion that nobody likes that. This means the logical solution, based on your own reasoning, would be addressing concerns on a one on one basis using a system of "meaningful back and forth dialogue" in order to keep players from feeling ignored.

    However, that was likely not your intention in this post. No, your intention is that YOU should not be made feel ignored. You want your suggestions, ideas, and complaints to get responses. Right?

    These forums are not very busy so I am pretty sure they are reviewed and actually pertinent information is relayed to the Dev Team. The Bug report forum is pretty Dev active after all.

    Or are you expecting a pat on the head every time a Dev agrees with something you post?

    And the forum represent only a small fraction of the paying player base. This is a known fact across MMOs and pretty much any business really. There are always going to be the loud and vocal few, but the majority of your customers don't say anything.
    So how much of forum suggestions is an accurate representation of player view? Devs have access to a wealth of in game player information showing what is popular and what is not, what features are being used more than others, and generally how players spend their time in game. This information paints a much better picture of the state of the game than same handful of malcontents spam posting on the forums.

    No, "many" players do not. Most players are motivated by their personal vested interest, meaning that their suggestions often fall to take the broader game into account and instead focus on a very narrow view of the game as a whole.
    Also, since you brought up the notion of legitimate bug reports, there are several parts of the equation you are overlooking.
    #1. Is it an actual bug or a perceived bug?
    #2. Can it be verified and replicated?
    #3. Is the bug high priority or low priority?
    #4. Just acknowledging the report places the expectation of a quick solution and place an unmanageable time table over the heads of the Dev team.

    After over 20 years of playing over 10 different MMOs, my scenario is not the most bizarre I have ever seen. There was a legitimate push in WoW during the Burning Crusade expansion to give raids a solo mode so people to take part in the "lore". They would get loot too, because the didn't want to feel left behind when compared to raiders. Back in the old school Everquest days there were pushes for allowing characters to gain exp when offline, give warriors port spells, and changing the cooldown of Shadow Knight Harm Touch to 60 seconds. There have been countless stupid and idiotic suggestions floated at devs for as long as there have been MMOs.
    But that was not the point of my analogy which, as evidenced by your response, you completely missed. I will rephrase for your understanding.
    How long should Devs engage with terrible ideas? Will engagement even stop the person from pushing for their terrible idea?

    I have created no Strawmen, so I believe that you do not fully understand what a "Strawman" is, let alone what the fallacy actually means. You stated that players don't like to feel ignored, the implication being that in order to prevent players from feeling ignored, Dev's need to interact with all player suggestions.
    Perhaps you spend less time posting word vomit and follow the advice of Kobra and Make your point more succinctly.
  13. Brontus EQ Player Activist

    False. This was not my implication. Stop making things up.

    False and wrong. I made no mention of any personal issues I have. The post I created discussed better communication, having more efficacious dialogue,and improving the working conditions for devs by hiring more devs to help ease the workload. I never demanded that devs engage every poster and even said in my original post that the devs are currently under no obligation to read or act upon anything in these forums.This is another strawman you have created.

    Can you provide evidence that information is relayed to the dev team or is this just wishful thinking?

    False, irrelevant, and uncharitable. I highly urge you to learn about the Principle of Charity in discussion, debate and philosophy which states:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

    In philosophy and rhetoric, the principle of charity or charitable interpretation requires interpreting a speaker's statements in the most rational way possible and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation.

    I 100% agree. I made this point myself in my original post. Clearly, you must have missed it or didn't read it completely. Here's what I said:

    Forums are also prone to being monopolized by a handful of posters and these posters do not necessarily represent the will of the playerbase.

    Do you have evidence that the devs have metrics which gauge player happiness and player satisfaction? Do you have evidence that devs act upon these metrics?

    Malcontents spam posting on the forums? There are a lot of veteran EQ players who post profusely on these forums. Many of them have vast knowledge about this MMO and go out of their way to help people and new players returning after years away.I don't think they would appreciate being called malcontents.

    You stated that these forums are not very busy. Which is it? Forums full of spam by malcontents or Tumbleweed Junction?

    False again. As a student of logic I certainly understand what a strawman argument is and what the term fallacy is.


    Saying that someone is posting "word vomit" and calling them a "malcontent" who is spamming the forums is not in keeping with the rules and spirit of these forums.All I wanted to do was discuss ways that both players and devs could have constructive dialogue to make this a better game and to help improve their working conditions with more staffing.

  14. Rauven Augur


    A lot of people in gaming forums in general have too high an opinion of themselves. If they don't appreciate the label, it probably fits. If they see it as a shotgun blast over the head, maybe they're not.
  15. Waring_McMarrin Augur


    Sure sounds like you are harassing them as they gave you an answer that you didn't like and you kept petitioning. Your petition is making a very bad assumption that they have the information needed to determine exactly what happened to each npc that is killed in the game.

    In the end you are talking about spending a lot of time for a single kill that will make it much harder to help others that need it.
  16. Magician9001 Augur

    Man people like you need help. I petitioned nobody, i harassed nobody. Imagine defending this games CS when it's had the most rampant botting of any MMO i've ever seen for years, that's a big yikes.
  17. Waring_McMarrin Augur


    Sure you petitioned but it sounds like you continued to bug the GM after they answered your petition with an answer you didn't like. You have no right to ask or demand for evidence of how they reached their decision.
  18. Gnothappening Augur

    To be fair, I don't think EQ has had the most rampant botting of any MMO. FF14 and WoW both have rampant botting/gold farming.
  19. Karreck Somebody

    Then you don;t know what implication means. I will enlighten you.

    "the conclusion that can be drawn from something although it is not explicitly stated."

    My assessment stands.

    Again, this is what you said.

    Let's take both your statements into consideration. Here "Student of Logic", I will Modus Ponens it for you.

    If Devs do not engage with every suggestion, then some players will feel ignored.
    Devs do not have to engage with every suggestion
    Therefore, some players will feel ignored.

    And, according to you, players feeling like they are being ignored is a bad thing.

    That's is part of the job Accendo, and Dreamweaver before him, have. You should read the Discord, both have stated multiple times that they relay information to the Dev team.
    Or are you not aware of the Discord?

    First, nice attempt at a brain flex. It's cute.
    Second, I did not make an interpretation, I asked you a question. There is a big difference. I thought you would know that.

    If you agree that the forums represent a small fraction of the player base, then why do you care that the Devs read the forums? Wouldn't that be a waste of their time for such little information?

    There are plenty of developer interviews for Everquest, World of Warcraft, etc etc that show the Dev Teams have their own metrics. Feel free to look them up. I am sure you are smart enough to find them

    Good thing I never said everybody who posts was a malcontent then huh? Sounds like you are making a Strawman and not adhering to your own Principle of Charity.
    Tsk tsk tsk......

    Show me where I called you a malcontent.
    I dare you.
    -----Cinexa----- and Stymie like this.
  20. sadre Augur

    Release the code.

    That is the next logical step to these "frustrations," not more CS or feedback.

    This game is old tech. Many people (not me) are industrious and clever. Just like the Grateful Dead did, just let it go. And then have EQ be a server board where the market -- which has, currently, 12 peta-billion design suggestions in its queue in this obsolete thing called "DBG" -- can decide which freakin "flavor" of elf simulator 1999 it wants to play.

    That is the only end game here, and it is getting boring waiting.
    Metanis likes this.