Please do something about Cazel

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Kaizaki, Jul 14, 2021.

  1. Accipiter Old Timer


    I didn't say anything about DPG's practices. I was talking about how real software companies operate. Now that we're on the subject, though, I'm guessing DPG is very much still fly by the seat of their pants. I'd like to hear evidence to the contrary but the many issues they introduce whilst fixing other bugs tells me what I need to know.
    Demetri likes this.
  2. Accipiter Old Timer


    You are forgetting the differences in player power now vs then. Nearly every fight required 2-n groups. The final fights were always a raid force.
    Triconix likes this.
  3. Sourire New Member

    Imagine DBG applying MotM to epic mobs.
    Demetri and Accipiter like this.
  4. Tweakfour17 Augur

    It's not made from a position of ignorance, see the posts above, nothing takes 5 minutes. If the devs had "5 minutes" to spare I'd prefer they fix chat filters which affects everyone across every server vs the enchanter epic which affects 1/16th of the available classes on 2 servers (which was already revamped to be significantly easier than every other server since epics came out)
  5. Nyvlag Elder

    You're not wrong, but that would be difficult to solve without simply re-introducing the artificial bottlenecks for quests that are no longer "epic" -- they are just quests. I'd argue the necro skullcap and shaman cudgel are far more "epic" in terms of difficulty/length than epic weapons. They also tend to feel more satisfying to complete. They are also heavily bottlenecked and several spawns are totally under lock and key by people selling them (the cap, anyways, idk about the cudgel on Mischief) -- the difference being that most of those spawn timers are fairly short, so the market gets flooded quickly AND there's a higher probability of jumping in there and snagging one for yourself.

    Imagine DBG adding an option to the AOCs to spawn a max 12-man instance for epic raid mobs with MOTM tailored to require the 2 groups.
  6. Waring_McMarrin Augur


    And you are forgetting that it is not just dev time that is needed to make the change. There is also planning around it to decide what the exact change should be (and all the paperwork involved) and testing to make sure it works as expected.

    Sure it could be something that a dev makes a small update that takes a couple of minutes but there is a lot more steps needed besides that.
    Tweakfour17 likes this.
  7. Accipiter Old Timer


    For the record, I'm not trying to solve anything. I was simply pointing out that epics in 2000 were more epic than they are today.
  8. Triconix Augur

    Agreed. If you need to find evidence, just look at any TLP pre MOTM fight. It's an absolute joke how much player power increased and MOTM only partially normalizes it.

    Melee dps is way higher; Pretty much all spells have increased damage for casters; Abilities backfilled out of era to help relieve horrible class imbalance that existed (and still do) early in the game; bandolier availability; saved spell set ups and spell bar (highly underrated power gain for hot swapping spell sets and post rez); more and better potions; less lag in game (better hardware and ISP options); bard melody exists; autofire exists; money with 0 weight and more weight reduction bags (powerful for monks); extended target; additional /commands, etc. These are all things just off the top of my head that greatly increases player power in early era TLPs over when I used to do this stuff 2 decades ago. I know for sure I'm missing many many more.

    I remember bringing raid forces in for Chardok to get epic pieces. Now those things are grouped with relative ease.

    The final items also didn't exist during original Kunark...

    EDIT: Now you got me thinking about these changes. Click from bags is a major power increase. Not having to reloot your corpse after a rezz. Spells are gained at different levels now (hybrid spells used to start at level 9 if I recall?) Late expansion mounts available for purchase outside of game (nobody can tell me you didn't see hundreds of COV mounts being used on Aradune/Rizlona the first day of Luclin) Having all your casters have mounts day 1 is a huge power gain. Mount buffs. The modifying of "Form of" buff lines to all stack with each other as a passive AA is an insane power increase, not only because you get all the benefits of every one, but you free up buff slots. Changes to heroic stats and corresponding mod2s allows players to "double dip" in benefits given.
    Accipiter likes this.
  9. Gio1999 Augur

    That doesn't mean as much as you think it does. All things equal epics are going to be less epic because we know in detail how to do them.

    The thing I find goofy is that originally players had 8 months of just Kunark and now we have 2 months on Mischief. We speed up the timelines 4x, but expect epic progression to be like year 2000 rates otherwise it's too easy.
  10. Nyvlag Elder

    Well aware. Doesn't change the fact that it's true. They feel better to complete. Because quest design evolved over time. Because realization that locking things behind 24+ hour spawns wasn't fun evolved over time.

    Lots of reasons why they're better quests.

    There's also reasons why they're infuriating. Kurn's Cudgel bits come to mind.
  11. Nyvlag Elder

    Bingo. Let's at least argue the same thing. "MUH CLASSIC" is stupid on many levels, but especially given the accelerated timelines. If we went with original 2000 rates; we'd be in GoD before most of the server got their 1.0s.
    Demetri likes this.
  12. Triconix Augur

    Just for your awareness, I'm not arguing that modifications should not be made. I am the one who said all misc NPCs or mob targets should be max 4 hour spawn times. 6 hours is reasonable I think as well.

    However, comparing quests introduced much later isn't a fair comparison at all.

    Also, comparing time allowed in Kunark from 2000 to now is also an unfair comparison. Just look at all the power increases to players. I didn't even mention things like increased exp rates allow players to blow through 10 levels in a day or two vs needing weeks to just grind. This quickens and eases content up exponentially (minus the now absurdly long roadblocks that exist because of these changes).

    There's a reason why these roadblocks now exist when they didn't: Players are coasting through content faster and easier. Also, players see this content way more than any player would in 8 months. Instances, picks, etc allow a player to see a things multiple times in a single week. On live servers, you were lucky to kill or see these targets a couple times a month. Guilds raided targets expansions old on live servers because of the limits of all OW. You needed to in order for your guild to have decent gear. Now you have players in mostly BIS gear each expansion while doing it in half the time allowed.

    These NPC timers should be modified because of previously modified QOL changes. DPG gave players a 4 lane highway for the more "epic" raid targets but had it merge into a single lane bike path 2 miles down the road for hand in, group-kill, or hail npcs. This isn't original design intent. Therefore, it should be updated.
    jiri_ likes this.
  13. jiri_ Augur

    Nothing takes five minutes except the things that do. Unless you can say exactly how long a particular task should take - and not 'well, i work on software and software is complicated' - then don't worry about how long it takes. The developers are professionals managed by professionals. They're more aware of how long stuff takes than any player. They can prioritize on their own.

    I'm not forgetting that. It's another variable that we don't know because we don't work for the company.

    "We don't know how long this change will take to make" is an argument against making any change ever for any reason. Let the devs worry about that - they're good at saying no to requests that take too much time for too little benefit, like Type 21 augs or PvP TLPs.
  14. Fred_Bear Lorekeeper

    I didn't say we should get rid of the server. I don't play on Mischief and don't care to.

    Simply asked the question: "Why do you all still play on this server? If you hate the server rules so much, or hate the boxing armies and krono sellers, move to a more fun server."

    It's more of a philosophical question, really.

    I read constant complaints about servers with rules that people don't like, and wonder to myself "Why are you playing on this server with these rules, if you complain about the server and it's rules?"

    That's all. Don't get so upset. ;)

  15. Waring_McMarrin Augur


    You are still missing the point. People are playing on the server because for the most part they enjoy the rule set. Pointing out an issue with a single mob and drop that works exactly the same as it does on every other server is not saying the don't like the rules on the server.

    This is not and has not been a complaint about the rules but an issue with how a single mob works.
  16. Fred_Bear Lorekeeper

    I remember doing my first "Epic" quest as a necro on live.... back then, unless you were in the top guild, it was likely you couldn't even get your epic in Kunark or even Velious.... Even in Planes of Power on live, getting your epic was a challenge.

    The quest was LONG. You had to piece together pickup raids to do Sky for the CHANCE of a cloak drop from the Pegasus.

    You had to visit fear, hoping to find the Golems up so you could try to get the slime blood (gloves) and hope that you could get enough people together to burn down Fear/Dread/Terror before the Deathtouches wiped out all the key people.... and then it might not even drop!

    Even without the competition of the top guilds (as they were farming Planes) there was competition for drops, and nameds, and events in the open world.... it was literally an EPIC quest.

    It was not something you did in a week. It took months.

    The complaints that you might not get your epic done in Kunark...... well? Not everyone does get theirs done in Kunark.


  17. Waring_McMarrin Augur


    And all of those hard drops you are talking about are very easy to get these days with agents of change giving access to everyone. The hold ups now are the parts that are easy to do but have long spawn timers either from needing to kill something or it despawns when you do the step.

    The game has changed so much from 2000 that it isn't fair to compare what you had to do back than to what you have to do now and there is no reason to consider epics hard because you have to wait for something to spawn.
    Demetri and Triconix like this.
  18. Fred_Bear Lorekeeper


    I remember sitting in Oasis of Marr as a lowly Wizard on my first character ever.

    I was joining pickup groups doing orcs. Just trying to get some XP etc.

    This was during Velious, so late 2000?

    An enchanter zoned in looking for Cazel.... No one had seen him. He offered a 1500pp reward to be notified if anyone saw it. If he was able to get his spoon he would pay out the reward.

    Later, I remember seeing this Giant wandering too close for my comfort, ... oh wow "Cazel".

    So I sent the Enchanter a tell, he brought 4 or 5 of his friends and killed him. And that's how I got my first REAL platinum to my name... I quickly ran to Gfay (on my server Gfay was the Trading area, not Commonlands Tunnel)

    I bought my first decent gear with that Platinum. Sapphire Necklace? Maybe a Stein or two?

    Ahhh good times.

    Strange that even then, people were willing to pay for the drop.... twenty years ago....
  19. Fred_Bear Lorekeeper

    I'm just saying, that epics are supposed to be epic. Time, Effort, Coordination.

    Have they made Slime-Blood of Cazic Thule a guaranteed drop?
    How about the Black Silk Cape from island 4 Pegasus?
    How about the Manisi Herb from Chardok?

    do all of those drop everytime the mob dies?

    Cazel has a 100% drop rate for the item, right? He always drops it?

    Some time sinks are Random Drops
    Some time sinks are long-repops.

    I haven't done a Necro epic in 19 years or so, so I'm not sure, but I'm going to say the answer to my questions are "no, they don't always drop".....



  20. jiri_ Augur

    The Necro epic in-era should be a cautionary tale rather than an aspirational example. It's a quest where most of the challenges are about player logistics and guild buy-in for an actually pretty crappy reward. Turns out, if you load a bunch of death touch mobs into a quest line with a mediocre reward, guilds will be reluctant to do it in later expansions! Who knew?

    And what it was like in-era is really not that relevant now. Most things that were challenges then aren't now. The players aren't ten years old, characters have been power-creeped to heck and back, and there's a detailed walkthrough for everything you could ever want.
    Demetri likes this.