Guildes are going to be the worst in this TLP and here is why.

Much love to all 19 of you, Machen, but the point isn't to outline an exhaustive list of possible cases that might demonstrate why GDKP is bad or even to take a pessimistic view on guilds (even if such a view were arguably merited by the history of this game's playerbase). It's just to state the plain reality that it will be easier to take advantage of people on this server than on others. That creates a significant amount of risk. How likely you think that risk is to materialize is probably proportional to how likely you think EQ players are to attempt to cheat one another.

Like I said before; all of those problems have solutions. But ignoring the reality that this server creates genuinely novel economic considerations is a good way to set oneself up for victimization. You say "human judgment" and I hear "not predictable or consistent." You say "DKP = an ever adjusting amount of plat" and I hear "DKP's value is arbitrary." In both cases we're talking about something subject to whim. Again, I'm not making a value judgment here, and I'm not pronouncing doom. I'm just suggesting that caution is a prudent course. Any time someone says, "Not all guilds x," that's a big red flag to me that I ought to be looking for x. For that matter, any time someone tells me I shouldn't look out for myself, I wonder if I should check my wallet.

In the end, I'm not making any proposals or offering any advice other than to be careful. Take it with a grain of salt. I'm not an economist. It just strikes me as exploitable, and this game has a bad history of unscrupulous guilds. People will attempt to exploit discrepancies in information, purchasing power, and social power to get ahead, here as everywhere. Caveat emptor. That's all.

People are insanely jealous and backstabbing toward each other over just hum drum DKP systems, I can't imagine the super charged insanity that will come from GDKP being used for a full raiding guild. I can only see it ending in the guild exploding, not to mention the ridiculous hassle managing it will be for the leaders and the enormous trust you need in all of your officers who handle money.

I think similar extra insanity will happen in regular DKP guilds too as people realize all of their bids have a cash value associated with them. People will see the dead weight players that every 72 person raid has win easily liquidated items worth hundreds of dollars for contributing nothing to the raid. GDKP at least feels honest even if it's too difficult to use for a full sized raiding guild.

Most people won't play long enough to care so it's not a serious issue, but it should be fun to watch.

If you realize 4 days later you missed a dkp tick, it's easily fixed. If you realize after the split went out then what? That gdkp can't come from nowhere whereas dkp can.

Are you not familiar with sites like Araduneauctions.com & the Aradune Auctions discord? I assume Mischief will have a website and auction discord just like past TLP's. Players will have tools to monitor the market, track prices, search price histories etc.

They aren't, because if they do this once, everyone will quit and join other guilds. Plus, a lot of the gear early in the game is tradeable, so is this really even an issue.

Has no one been on any of Krimzin's GDKP's? He has every thing laid out, ticks per boss, amount spent per item, krono value per each tick, ect. Here is a spread sheet from yesterday's Vex Thall :

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-HEAbPCVEBIeHBwwFqSGwKt0YVx68CfR7a4144xyzy8/edit#gid=3385341

This was 80+ krono. We already got paid.

They can take dumps each boss to insert who was there, all loot will be bid at the end of the raid, anyone can bid, ect. Everyone has to take responsibility for making sure they are on the sheet/ticker per boss. If you aren't there for a boss, you miss that split.

As long as the guild you're in has well laid out rules it's not that bad. The problem is guilds that try to fly by the seat of their pants.

That looks fantastic, dare I say a work of art. In the context of this discussion it looks like a high-water mark of how GDKP can be implemented well, documented precisely, and work to the benefit of the whole team. I would go so far as to say it's a significant improvement over DKP, since everyone who contributes shares in the rewards immediately. Are y'all recruiting?

I just don't expect every guild to go to the trouble of doing that kind of accounting and bookkeeping, because transparency is anathema to corruption (and if it's not obvious from my fear-mongering here, my corruption quotient is pretty high when it comes to EQ guilds). That kind of thing requires a great deal of effort from the leadership beyond the already thankless demands on time and coordination.

It doesn't even require any malicious intent: Laziness will do, even simple errors. Record-keeping sites help with managing the traffic in the tunnel, but a lot of the risk inherent in systems that attempt to track many moving parts (attendance, value, market, etc.) is that the transparency isn't something that's handled on the back end (as it is with the bazaar, to use a crude if obvious example). It requires an extra volume of manual effort on the part of multiple actors, in guild leadership, third-party maintenance, and on an individual level. It demands greater vigilance, because we all know not everyone will go above and beyond (as it appears, at a glance at least, Krimzin does), and the value of even a single simple gap in information can be astronomical.

???????? You absolutely can. You can note on a ledger of who you overpaid and who you underpaid and compensate on later raids.

I highly doubt people in GDKP guilds are gonna be tightly wound Karens that cry over a tiny little bit of plat.

You're the type of guy that rages cause the rest of the group rolled need on Fire Emeralds aren't you?

Half this thread was very entertaining for me to read. Honestly the questions raised about GDKP are probably common thoughts from someone who has not been to one yet. I think it would be tuff to have a full on GDKP raid guild without fully trusting someone holding 100-300 krono of other players "money" without a record of doing it regularly like I have. I designed a process for us that could imo change the way all guilds do loot from here out on these TLPs but hey maybe I'm just a little biased.

What? The question was how is gdkp any different than dkp. I simply pointed out that gdkp is zero sum, whereas regular dkp you can in the fly create more points if you need to. Sure you can keep a ledger than each raider was over paid 3567p and Magician9001 was under paid 35000p and next raid remember to balance it out. It's doable, just jot as easy as adding you to the missing tick and calling it a day.

This is exactly how a gdkp needs to be laid out. Everyone can see every tick, every boss and what each piece of loot went for. Krono conversion. Everything is transparent. Props to Krimzin

If they can pull it off, great, but it looks like a management nightmare/several full time jobs just for a semi active raiding guild. At some point people will stop paying attention due to the complexity and when people think they are not seen, that is when some take advantage.

First, who is Mark and what makes him so great to be my potential?

Second, the powers that be are suppressing the truth!!!



JK... it was pulled for profanity.. I guess my potty mouth slipped in my post so had to remake. Unfortunately when they delete posts they do not leave a copy for me to read so had to retype all that instead of just copypasta minus the naughty word.

Guild membership is just as, if not more likely to abuse the crap out of this ruleset than the leaders are. If you run a regular DKP guild then essentially you are allowing members to convert pretend internet points into real money much easier than you could in a regular server with most loot being no trade.

Apparently people have already forgotten all their guild members that did DKP dumps then hit the tunnel.

Oh no, we haven't forgotten (or at least I haven't; can't speak for anyone else). No doubt the risk of abuse need not always come from the top down. Please don't mistake criticism and concerns about GDKP as an endorsement of DKP or any other system. DKP is the devil, and it always has been. It was never anything other than a way to try to make more fair a fundamentally unfair economic environment, imperfect but preferable to anarchy. The only positive thing I can say about DKP is that people are more familiar with it because we've all had to put up with some version of it for 20 years. I don't remember anyone being enthusiastic about it. It was just a step up from RNG.

We remember the DKP dumps on the way out the door and are (it is to be hoped, anyway) vigilant for it. By contrast, most of us don't have the same kind of experience with GDKP, and since it represents distinct possibilities for exploitation there's a likelihood that people might not even understand if they're being taken advantage of. I would be extremely surprised (but also extremely happy) to learn that a majority of Mischief guilds had Krimzin levels of book-keeping by someone with a similarly apparently good reputation.

"Good reputation"

Imagine being a fully grown adult in the year 2021 with full access to the internet and not knowing how ledger systems and Crypto works

I don't know what elite accountants you raid with but I've played with a number of players who can barely figure out how to get gina going let alone crypto and ledgers so..cool for you I guess.