Any word on necro 1-65 dot revamp?

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Montag, Mar 22, 2021.

  1. Hadesborne Augur

    My evidence is my experience. And anyone who played back on live during Luclin through to OOW knows that necros were top DPS with no challengers untill the berserkers started getting geared. Since then Sony/DBG basically buffed every other class except the necromancer and now the "original" DPS comparison is out of whack. Necros ARE mediocre DPS these days(in luclin) on raid targets compared to wizards, Rangers, and in the next expansion Monks and Rogues as well, when they should be top DPS. Part of the reason the fire lines should be consolidated is: Necros put in WAY more work to get their "mediocre" DPS than all of these other classes, and yet the result isn't quite worth all the effort is it?

    So let's discuss how this consolidation should happen. Consolidating ALL the fire lines into one un-stackable line is not exactly what we or others may want. So how about a compromise? How about consolidating the fire dots with the same duration into one line for each duration. So lets look at this shall we?

    Heat Blood --> Boil Blood --> Ignite Blood = all 42 sec duration. Consolidate these with each other.

    Pyrocuror --> Funeral Pyre = 48 sec duration each. Consolidate these with each other.

    Night Fire --> Pyre of Mori --> Pyre of the Fallen = all 54 sec duration. Spells above Pyre of Mori have already been consolidated, why not consilidate Pyre of Mori with Night Fire and finish the line.

    Above this level the spells have already been consolidated.

    Now this WOULD increase the power of the necromancer slightly. Mainly by reducing their ramp-up time on DPS. BUT, it also would not make the necromancer class too easy for all those who would be worried about that consequence. This would give a different look at what spells a necromancer would use at different levels. Just like the poison line(Ebolt vs VoS), the necromancer would get options for Big DPS maybe at the cost of efficiency on their highest spell of each line and then maybe for the lower spell(s) for each line would get a better efficiency but not as great for damage. Also there are plenty of other things a top end necromancer can do with their time even if they arent stacking 10+.

    Also PLEASE re-look at our our scent line of spells. Kind of stupid that every other class gets a resist adjust on the spell that debuffs the resists for that damage type, except the necromancer (so we can actually land the debuff instead of burning our mana trying to land a debuff that will for the most part pre-luclin, rarely land) (Tash = unresistable, Malo = unresistable, Druid Ro line = -200 FR, Insidious Decay = unresistable) The effect of extreme resists on MOTM mobs is doubling down on the negative for casters as we get resists AND damage reduction (remembering that mana is a finite resource unlike melee). We want to help debuff the mobs.
    Montag likes this.
  2. Ronluwen Elder

    I'm not opposed to the revamp, but I don't agree that they SHOULD be the highest dps based on what they may or may not have been on original release. I'm pretty sure they have more utility than most dps classes combined.
  3. Hadesborne Augur

    Other DPS classes also have utility in different ways. Remember that most other DPS classes outshine necromancers in the group game. DPG has put a priority on group exp by buffing it and not buffing the necros main source of exp (soloing). This puts the necromancer at a disadvantage in this regard. One must understand that that the necromancer raid DPS and solo utility must be compared to other DPS classes raid DPS and group ability as this is where they shine when considering their main source of xp. So necros have been effectively nerfed when comparing our main XP methods vs other DPS classes main XP methods. And yet we have also been effectively nerfed in our Raid DPS (something that we outshined every other class in before). Completing the necromancer Fire DoT consolidation would help us out in both of these areas slightly, but mainly in the raid DPS arena (AND might I remind you, this would complete that which they DID promise to do when the consolidation began).
  4. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    When Ranged classes have to dance on a razor's edge for positioning to avoid damage they can have better dps than melee, being able to avoid melee damage like AE Rampage & plenty of melee ranged spells & abilities/auras etc. by virtue of their ranged abilities is a powerful benefit and causes ranged classes to suffer less deaths & XP loss as a result of those.

    People don't exclude Necromancers from groups in my experience, unless they are being jerks, even if Necro DPS is not quite as spectacular in groups as it is on raids at lower levels, at the high end (100+) there is enough hp on mobs that this is not even an issue anyway though the current live game where Necromancers are vastly more powerful than everyone else is a temporary situation, either stagnation or a rebalance will happen eventually to correct it, rebalancing in the game prior to live content is a lot slower process currently.

    Also let's ALL bear in mind that "DPS you had before" is largely irrelevant in the debate if there are changes being made. The developers have never stated what the DPS hierarchy is, should be or will be so classes being top dog changes over time, changes with each expansion, can change with each monthly patch even. All of a classes strengths & weakness are considered when the class is being developed further and changes to its place in the DPS pecking order fluctuate as different developers get to work on them.
    What does get dealt with & rebalanced is when a class is vastly more powerful than others, so the idea that Necromancers or any other class should be the best is a complete fallacy - competitive yeah sure but just because your class was the best during PoP in 2003 doesn't mean it will be the best during PoP in 2021 on a TLP - too much changed to expect that kind of consistency - and you cannot expect that just because your class was the best in Velious it will be the best in Luclin either, it's a very bad argument to even think of using that as a justification.
  5. Aenoan Augur

    Well, I play live. I played on TLPs in the past. I rather like how necros are and my friend who plays necros are much higher level does some amazing dps and she likes the spell swapping mid fight. When I am soloing on my monk, the only thing I get to look forward too when DPSing is basically swapping to my club of slime and tash stick then back to my weapons because /autoskill tigerclaw and flyingkick. So far but I am just goofing around until a new TLP launches.

    Just a humble opinion anyway. In the end the devs will do what they think is best for the game.
  6. Hadesborne Augur

    Casters already have to deal with a finite resource for 90% of their damage profile. This is enough to debunk this argument.
  7. Hadesborne Augur

    Or they just want to be super efficient. And there are a TON of min-maxers on TLP servers btw. So what I originally stated, is true. Stop dancing around the point whiule bringing in OPINION to battle facts.

    This would make sense if not for the original promise made to revamp ALL the classesa dots. and then they did for ever class except for THE DoT class. Again another effective nerf.
  8. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    What opinion? I said experience & meant it, I have played on TLP since 2015, here's a fact you might not have considered - different players may not have the same experiences you have....zing!

    Can you point to this "original promise" at all or is it just collated/constructed from multiple memories?


    While I recall devs saying that they wanted to revamp the class & consolidate dots I do not recall them specifying whether that would include all of them or what level ranges.
  9. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    No, it is not. Running out of your mana doesn't kill you the last time I checked.
  10. Kahna Augur

    I decided a few raids ago to stop bothering to use all my fire dots. It was too much of a hassle. Replaced those casts with Ancient Lifeburn. My DPS went up, and my frustration level went down. I'm usually in the 5th-10th spot on DPS (bosses and overall trash) and I'm happy enough there. I cast 6 dots (adjusted as needed to match boss resists) 1 nuke and FD. I have 1 spell gem set to worry about and raids are so much less stressful. I do occasionally replace one of the gems with mind wrack and hot swap a single gem to get my long dots on, but the wizards usually get themselves killed before they run out of mana anyway so I don't normally see the point in giving them more mana.

    I still think they should consolidate the fire line. They have had lots of practice with it by now, and I find it hard to believe they can't manage to consolidate 1 line of 7 or so spells.
    Skuz likes this.
  11. Hadesborne Augur

    This means you have little to no experience comparatively. Just stop. The fact that you kleep looking at these situations "FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE" and can't see the big picture is astounding. Take a moment, step back, and reevaluate your thought process when regards to what "others" may have or "usually" experience.

    You don't remember because you aren't the type to remember when this was posted - Feb of 2016 FYI.

    This statement right here shows that you have no experience and can't see the forest for the trees. Please stop responding to this thread as you have no experience in this matter and are just nay-saying (like you do on SOOO many other threads). All of your responses show that you don't and have never mained a necromancer or you would just think differently.
  12. Triconix Augur

    Last I checked, most high end necro mains don't want DOT merges. You seem to be dying on that hill alone.

    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/march-2016-patch-preview.231275/#post-3407873

    I hope this isn't your source because you clearly didn't read. Aristo said entire dot line revamps probably won't happen for every class. That's just your self-made fiction.

    But please, don't let fact stop you on your crusade of fictional history while using justications like "but it used to be like that!" Because everything in the past was done correctly, like honor killings and slavery (sarcasm here).
    Skuz likes this.
  13. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Yeah, whatever.



    I think Triconix has debunked your argument in the post above mine pretty well enough, I need not say more on your mistaken beliefs.



    You're the one shouting the odds saying Necromancers should be top dps because of "reasons" you provide literally zero logical argument for why except your opinion or subjective experience, you make the mistake that so many players make in assuming that the way you see things, or "the way that they were" is the way that it "should be" with absolutely nothing in the way of a well-reasoned argument to support it, fact is there has never been a DPS hierarchy from the developers so any & i do mean ANY dps hierarchy invented by players is a construct of their own.

    Now I & many other long-time melee players have quite reasonably argued that having to fight within or extremely close to the melee range of raid mobs entails a great deal higher risk of death than any cloth wearing caster class needs to worry about on a constant basis, this has nothing to do with "resource management" it has to do with risk requirement to actually function. If you cannot discern that mechanic then you are the one who doesn't see the bigger picture.

    Now I myself don't think any DPS class should be defacto number 1, I do think Melee should have some edge over ranged dps due to the higher risks of death that they have to contend with as melee-range classes that Ranged classes are not having to deal with - but I think all the top DPS should be somewhat competitive and not too far apart - certainly not really huge gaps between comparatively well-played, well-geared & well-AA'd classes. Do I think Necromancers should Never be number 1? Nope, but they definitely shouldn't always be number 1 either.
    Triconix likes this.
  14. Hadesborne Augur

    Not the original post, no
  15. Hadesborne Augur

    They designed the spells that we used during that time, so YES, there was a DPS hierarchy created by the devs. Again, THINK before you type man.

    Don't make this a melee vs caster argument because there is no place for this in the Necromancer DoT revamp thread. Melee DPS issues have NO BEARING on wether or not necromancers deserve to have their full DoT revamp finished (like every other class). But I will say this one thing about it: How about making Melee swings use endurance and when you run out of endurance, any haste modifier is turned off untill you regain atleast 25% of your endurance again? THEN and only then would you know what it is like to DPS as a caster. This is what it means when I talk about a finite resource. Melee skills are based on their ability to do UNLIMITED melee damage without ever getting tired. Caster skills (and DPS) should be much higher due to there being a finite amount of damage we can do before our DPS gets throttled. OK? enough of the Melee vs Caster debate, which really isn't relevant here (trust me this isn't the hill you want to die on).

    I agree, the issue is they WERE number one in most raids from Luclin through to OOW, The fights start changing alot at that point with less tank and spanmks and more tactical fights that require target swapping, balancing and other despawn/respawn mechanics. These hamper the necros ability to "go ham" and bring their full resouces to bear (due to DPS ramp-up time). And necros are fine with this. Necromancer do want thhat which we had "our time to shine" as well as what we were promised. Try to use the way back machine to pull up the original DoT revamp anouncement btw.
  16. Triconix Augur

    But its the official post about dot revamps. The only thing that matters. I have showed written proof that they were never intended to be a broad sweeping every single dot from 1+ gets changed. It was to help the debuff limit on raids at higher levels. Your proof is...nothing but your word? I think ill take Aristo's post more seriously than this mystery post you refer to.
    Skuz likes this.
  17. Triconix Augur

    As were the items. Need I mention they were some of the absolute laughably worst item designs this game has ever seen? Knowing that, are you really going to use "but that's how they were back then!" as some prudent logic for why necros should seemingly be top of dps?

    Rogues are one of two pure melee dps in classic. They are an absolute joke compared to other every other dps during that time. Do you think devs intended for them to be pitiful at their one and only role, being outshined by even non "dps" classes? No, they just didn't design the class well initially. Same thing can be said with warriors and their aggro.

    DO NOT use that illogical reason of "because that's how it was." It holds no water. It's nothing more than just anecdotal jibberish with no true value or merit.
  18. Triconix Augur

  19. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Absolutely false, and completely bogus logic.

    Do you not recall MAKING this a Necromancer Vs Everyone else debate when you said:

    And then you go and make it one again:

    What a bunch of ignorant tripe.

    1. You regenerate Mana & Necromancers do that better than any others class bar maybe Shaman.
    2. Melee rely on expending Endurance to sustain their melee skills and cycling their discipines, they do a whole lot more than just autoattack & their dps is impacted quite a lot when they run out of endurance, such as when they die from that higher risk they must face in melee range of the mob.

    I never said they did, I argued against your statement that Necromancers WERE top DPS and that this justified them being so again despite several years of changes through many different expansions that have meant almost no class is where it was back then.

    This deliberately mis-represents quite a lot, most Necromancers are adept at dotting more than 1 mob, in fact the way that Necromancers often hit the higher echelons on the parses is through dotting multiple targets.

    You yourself admitted that Necromancers already had that, so you want it again instead of allowing others to shine & that's another reason why your argument is so bogus.

    I looked at February 2016 patch notes, zip nada zilch about DoT revamps, just the one Triconix linked to from March 2016 mentions it in substantial detail & there's no "Promises" except the ones in your imagination it would seem, the burden is on you to prove your assertions by the way so you go find these alleged promises if you are so cocksure.
    Triconix likes this.
  20. Ythera Augur


    Reread Aristo's post, Triconix. The part where he says that it might not happen for every class only refers to step 1 of doubling the damage of the first dot in the line; not to the whole process.

    Aristo wrote: "In order to improve the way this works, we're starting this process with Beastlords, but we're planning to continue with it through all classes that use DoTs regularly."

    Aristo wrote: "1. We went back to the first DoT in any given line, and doubled it (or more). This step may not happen for every class, but Beastlords in particular haven't been able to use DoTs for as much reliable damage as we'd like, so they needed the boost."

    Steps 2-4 outline how they're combining the damage of the previous 2ish spells from the line to each dot in order to replicate stacking them without having to actually do that. Between the initial statement and the 4 steps, it's clear that the intent is to 'combine' all the dot lines on all the dot classes.

    I don't really care whether necros are top dps or not, but don't misrepresent what was said.
  21. Triconix Augur

    I'm not misrepresenting anything.

    Aristo said they went all the way back to the first line of the dot and boosted it for beastlords. He said they probably won't do it with every class. What does that mean? That not every class is going to see entire DOT line revamps aka all dots from level 1 and up.

    He then explained the basics of how they were functionally revamping DOTs (even though it's not 100% what they did as we now see the deltas of all the revamps) of how they were going to make each spell roughly as powerful as the current spell plus previous two generations of the spell line in the old scale. They also categorized certain spells for classes so only one per raid can be on that selected target. Ok, great.

    So now that's cleared, let's break it down. We know they aren't going to go all the way back to the first spell in each dot line for all classes, as highlighted in point 1. We know how the revamps will functionally work as highlighted in point 2,3, and 4. What does that mean? It means they are going to choose a point in which they feel dots need to see a revamp because they said they aren't going all the way back to the first line for all classes. In the case of necros, that means they decided on 70+. No where else do I remember nor find they promised 1-70. Until someone can point me to another quote/poste made by a dev of this game, the only substantial evidence of their scope of their dot revamps is the one I posted from March 2016. And to my knowledge, that is the OFFICIAL dot revamp announcement, contrary to the mystery post of Feb 2016 that's being tossed around..

    What exactly am I misrepresenting?
    Skuz likes this.